Hospitallier?

Yannis · 9th November 2005, 08:57 AM

Thank you all for your help

I found a trace for the mysterious symbol on the hilt and it is very strange. If you like the “Da Vinci Code” will love this

http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/parad166.htm

Mark

As far as I can search, it was never a priory of any Hospitallier order in modern Greece. But there are some ties.

Two years after the greek revolution of 1821, the order made an agreement with some leaders to help the revolution with money and men and receive the island of Rhodes (after its liberation). They wanted Rhodes because of their medieval history. It was in their stronghold from 1310 to 1523 before they get Malta. The agreement broke because European countries and the new greek government didn’t like it.

If we accept that this sword was given to John James Watts, of the English branch of the Order, it must be some time around 1850. If so, the blade is earlier because Klingenthal had stopped production.

The text of dedication is French but if Jean Paleologus was in Greece and Watts was English the text should be Greek or English. So I suppose that this Paleologus was living in France and he wanted to revive the order of Malta in Greece. Apparently he didn’t made it.

Roz

I have not decoded it and I have no sources to do it. If you can help, I will be grateful. Thank you

yuanzhumin · 9th November 2005, 09:56 AM

Hello
Sorry to interfere in the debate, I couldn't help reading your interesting exchange about this sword.
My field of knowledge on this subject is close to nothing, but I can just make a suggestion : if you are looking for more infos, why not try to contact the descendants of the people you are talking about ? May be they could have some elements to answer your questions.
Kind regards,
Yuanzhumin

Mark · 9th November 2005, 05:39 PM

Good suggestion to track down descendents. Another would be to contact the Order directly. One question I had was whether or not this Watts fellow was connected to the Venerable Order of St. John (which is the only English Hospitallar Order with a real link to the medieval one), or to one of the numerous organizations that claim a more tenuous tie, including the Masonic Knights Templar, and others that mostly claim a link via an extinct Russian Order. The Venerable Order has had continuous existance in England, as it was simply a transformation of the English priories into a separate, Protestant entity after the Reformation in the 16th century, so if Watts "revived" it, I would think it was some other one, as the Venerable Order was in no need of reviving.

By the way, I would hazard a guess that +F+ stands for "Frere," or maybe "Frater," i.e., "Brother."

yuanzhumin · 13th November 2005, 12:35 PM

After the suggestion of the other day, few more infos for Yannis.
1- Paleologus: it is the family name in english and in latin when, in fact, this family was ruling the Byzantine Empire - the last family to do it. But in France, where many of their descendants lived, the family name is different. It is Paleologue, with 'ue' at the end, instead of 'us'.
2-I'm french, but quite far away from this country as I've been living in Taiwan for close to 15 years, but, may be, if someone from this Forum lives in France, he can help you to get in touch with the french descendants of the Paleologue. I know there are still some people from this family as I had some in my class and school 25 years ago. For sure, few of them are living in Paris or in the close suburbs around. If you contact them, I'm sure one of them may have some informations.
3-For the order of Malta, the most well known name of the sovereign military hospitaller order of Saint John of Jerusalem, they have a website (http://www.orderofmalta.org/) and a special status as an independant State that gives the order the right to have a seat at the UNESCO, the Europe council, and few other official organisations, so it would not be difficult to get in contact with them and check with them if the symbols on your sword is from this order, if there was a jean Paleologue as a member before.
Best,
yuanzhumin

9th November 2005, 09:56 AM	#2
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	A suggestion Hello Sorry to interfere in the debate, I couldn't help reading your interesting exchange about this sword. My field of knowledge on this subject is close to nothing, but I can just make a suggestion : if you are looking for more infos, why not try to contact the descendants of the people you are talking about ? May be they could have some elements to answer your questions. Kind regards, Yuanzhumin

13th November 2005, 12:35 PM	#4
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Suggestion part 2 After the suggestion of the other day, few more infos for Yannis. 1- Paleologus: it is the family name in english and in latin when, in fact, this family was ruling the Byzantine Empire - the last family to do it. But in France, where many of their descendants lived, the family name is different. It is Paleologue, with 'ue' at the end, instead of 'us'. 2-I'm french, but quite far away from this country as I've been living in Taiwan for close to 15 years, but, may be, if someone from this Forum lives in France, he can help you to get in touch with the french descendants of the Paleologue. I know there are still some people from this family as I had some in my class and school 25 years ago. For sure, few of them are living in Paris or in the close suburbs around. If you contact them, I'm sure one of them may have some informations. 3-For the order of Malta, the most well known name of the sovereign military hospitaller order of Saint John of Jerusalem, they have a website (http://www.orderofmalta.org/) and a special status as an independant State that gives the order the right to have a seat at the UNESCO, the Europe council, and few other official organisations, so it would not be difficult to get in contact with them and check with them if the symbols on your sword is from this order, if there was a jean Paleologue as a member before. Best, yuanzhumin

9th November 2005, 08:57 AM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Thank you all for your help I found a trace for the mysterious symbol on the hilt and it is very strange. If you like the “Da Vinci Code” will love this http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/parad166.htm Mark As far as I can search, it was never a priory of any Hospitallier order in modern Greece. But there are some ties. Two years after the greek revolution of 1821, the order made an agreement with some leaders to help the revolution with money and men and receive the island of Rhodes (after its liberation). They wanted Rhodes because of their medieval history. It was in their stronghold from 1310 to 1523 before they get Malta. The agreement broke because European countries and the new greek government didn’t like it. If we accept that this sword was given to John James Watts, of the English branch of the Order, it must be some time around 1850. If so, the blade is earlier because Klingenthal had stopped production. The text of dedication is French but if Jean Paleologus was in Greece and Watts was English the text should be Greek or English. So I suppose that this Paleologus was living in France and he wanted to revive the order of Malta in Greece. Apparently he didn’t made it. Roz I have not decoded it and I have no sources to do it. If you can help, I will be grateful. Thank you

9th November 2005, 05:39 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Good suggestion to track down descendents. Another would be to contact the Order directly. One question I had was whether or not this Watts fellow was connected to the Venerable Order of St. John (which is the only English Hospitallar Order with a real link to the medieval one), or to one of the numerous organizations that claim a more tenuous tie, including the Masonic Knights Templar, and others that mostly claim a link via an extinct Russian Order. The Venerable Order has had continuous existance in England, as it was simply a transformation of the English priories into a separate, Protestant entity after the Reformation in the 16th century, so if Watts "revived" it, I would think it was some other one, as the Venerable Order was in no need of reviving. By the way, I would hazard a guess that +F+ stands for "Frere," or maybe "Frater," i.e., "Brother."