Dating Earliest Barrels: the Importance of the Position of the Touch Hole

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... this indeed drum-shaped specimen that's hard to date as it shows virtually none of all the important criteria....

... But certainly end XIV-latest beg. XV century ?!

Originally Posted by Matchlock

...What can they do, after all? They won't eat ya up...

Oh, i'm the acid type; if they eat me, they'll get an indigestion

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

... But certainly end XIV-latest beg. XV century ?!

Literally any date might be assigned to it, from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500; I really can't tell.
I doubt whether it is complete though; looks like a cut-down fragment.

m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Literally any date might be assigned to it, from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500; I really can't tell.
I doubt whether it is complete though; looks like a cut-down fragment.

m

I assume you got my saying that, although this is currently called a trom (bombard), it is a reloading chamber and not an actual cannon .

[Matchlock]

Sorry, 'Nando,

I must admit that I overlooked that but it makes sense.
In this case, that beast is even younger, late 1st half 16th c., closely comparable to those found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, which sunk in Spithead harbor in 1545, and to another large specimen, 46 cm long, bore 40 mm, weighing 54 kg and formerly in my collection.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...breech+loading


Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

An interesting little handgun, 2nd half 15th c., retaining its original oaken stock (heavily wormed, the fore end and second iron band both missing), the octagonal wrought-iron barrel showing traces of red lead minium paint, the large touch hole on the top barrel flat. At the rear of the buttstock, a small ring is attached (cf. two small stocked barrels in my collection, introduced above).
German private collection.
Overall length 33.5 cm, bore 15 mm, 0.94 kg.

[fernando]

I dare ask if you missed another part of the text, when you compare it with the Mary Rose example .
The one i am posting is more than 3 times longer, 32 times heavier and has an almost 10 times wider mouth
I know many museum internal staff are not keen to describe what they keep but, in this case, the person that catalogues this example is supposed to be well informed; ex-member of the Portuguese Academy of History, ex-Director of the Army Library, ex-Director of the São Jorge (Aljubarrota) military field and museum of Aljubarrota, actively involved in the terrain research and author of various works on naval investigation, he attributes the age of this device to the primordium of pirobalistic artillery.

.

[Matchlock]

Rest asssured, dear 'Nando,


I did get the dimensions alright.

When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced.


Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Next to my haquebut barrel dated 1481 (see above), here is another important and dated piece, the breech struck with the date 1507. It is for a long, heavy-weight wall gun (doppelter Doppelhaken), starting octagonal at the breech and changing to a round section at about one fourth of its length, emphasized by an incised double line. If it were not dated, 'ca. 1500 or beginning of the 16th c.' would have been my classification based on the above-mentioned criteria. The touch hole is on the right-hand side, and a long dovetail behind the igniting hole denotes that once a pan had been attached that is missing today. That pan, as well as the two barrel loops, most probably were added in its working life, ca. 1530, when that barrel obviously was re-used with a full stock.
Above the rear of the breech, a maker's mark, showing the earliest use of initials I have ever noted on any barrel, IV in a square shield, has been deeply struck three times in the Gothic tradition, symbolizing the stylistic trefoil element. There is another dovetail on the rear top of the barrel, for a rear sight (missing), and also at the rear there is the earliest type of a barrel tang (Schwanzschraube), in all probability also added in ca. 1530. We may assume that originally in 1507, there was a long rear socket for a wooden tiller, and the piercing of the rectangular hook served for mounting the piece on a tripod. The muzzle is bell-mouthed.
Overall length 145.5 cm, bore 40 mm!
It was sold Hermann Historica, Munich, exactly 500 years after it was made, 2 May 2007.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Rest asssured, dear 'Nando,


I did get the dimensions alright.

When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced.


Best,
Michl

Vinced ... but not convinced
This Aljubarrota cannon issue is way far from clarified, i guess.
I have sent an email to The Navy Museum, asking for pictures of the trom chamber in various angles, includign the touch hole. I don't have much hope that they will answer, though