Sinhala / Sri Lankan Swords?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody

Ariel, The Ethuna kadu (Rolled up Sword) is not a mainstream weapon and is only still practiced by very few Angam martial artists in Sri Lanka. old examples of weapons seem virtually non-existent though some Angam schools still train with them. The person in the picture is Angam master Ajantha Mahantharachchi a friend of mine and among the few who are quite skilled at the use of the weapon in Sri Lanka. the movements seem more rotational than shown in the posted video clip and is effective in clearing a path 5-6 m. wide.

Vandoo- The link to Lions in Sinhala (Sinha=Lion - Sinhala literally means Lion people) goes back at least to two and a half millennia where the story links the ancestry of the Sinhala race to a Lion. it is not a recent acquisition. If you may note the Sri Lankan National flag is of a Lion carrying a Sword in hand. (not a Kasthana though )

Gustav, Thanks for the Images of the Hasekura Kasthane, It anyway seem quite a mixed up piece as even the guards and the ivory hilt seem to have different origins. to my knowledge the hilt seem to be of a later date stylistically and of a rather more crude craftsmanship. The blade obviously does not comply with Sinhala traditional design of Kasthana.

Salaams Prasanna Weerakkody ~ Your comments are both astute and very welcomed. The apparent presentation Kastane to the Japanese delegation may therefor be a reworked sword altogether and could even be a Storta with the addition of a Kastane hand and crossguard. See my post at #189 where there is a similar blade and hilt on two different exhibits in the same picture both which seem to be Storta. I note however that there is an interesting creature cut into the blade close to the point which may be mythical and Sri Lankan. The item may therefor be a hybrid; Something of mixed origin or composition.

Comparison of the Popham artwork and a non original Kastane would therefor seem premature, however, can you please access the earliest museum Kastane in Sri Lanka so that a more accurate assessment can be made?

I note your inclusion of your National Flag; From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Sri_Lanka Quote"It was adopted in 1950 following the recommendations of a committee appointed by the 1st Prime Minister of Ceylon, The Rt Hon D.S. Senanayake."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

Ibrahiim, Yes this flag is modern- but as you know it was copied and modified off the Banner of the Last Sinhala King. Also including an image of a Lion Flag inscribed among the murals of the Dambulla temple depicting the battles of King Dutugemunu and as his royal banner. The temple has a ancestry dating back to the 1st Century BC. - and underwent major renovation and re-painting in the 18th Century - which establishes the 'Lion with sword' as the Sinhala Royal Banner in the least to that period.

Any way my point in adding the flag was only to illustrate that the Lion motif is a primary national symbol of the Sinhalese. Its use on the Sword hilt etc. are as National symbols of the Sinhala race- not as purely religious or auspicious symbols.

Ariel, I shall try to get more information from Ajantha and get back to you on the “Ethuna Kadu” information.

[ariel]

Many thanks!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody

Ibrahiim, Yes this flag is modern- but as you know it was copied and modified off the Banner of the Last Sinhala King. Also including an image of a Lion Flag inscribed among the murals of the Dambulla temple depicting the battles of King Dutugemunu and as his royal banner. The temple has a ancestry dating back to the 1st Century BC. - and underwent major renovation and re-painting in the 18th Century - which establishes the 'Lion with sword' as the Sinhala Royal Banner in the least to that period.

Any way my point in adding the flag was only to illustrate that the Lion motif is a primary national symbol of the Sinhalese. Its use on the Sword hilt etc. are as National symbols of the Sinhala race- not as purely religious or auspicious symbols.

Ariel, I shall try to get more information from Ajantha and get back to you on the “Ethuna Kadu” information.

Salaams Prasanna Weerakkody Yes interesting ..I enjoyed reading about the flags meaning on the reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Sri_Lanka and noted that it used to contain 4 spearheads instead of the leaves..and that the sword is not the Kastane as reported on many references.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Japanese Museum Kastane.

Salaams All, Note to library. It would seem that the blade (and perhaps the hilt) on the Japanese museum Kastane may be of somewhat questionable provenance.

Is the blade in fact European possibly Spanish?
On the other hand could it be Chinese?

To view the possibilities of the latter I have placed below a couple of Forum references and finally to add spice to the discussion a potential Spanish weapon as yet not discussed on this thread from which the blade may have derived: The Terciado.

Illustrated below ~
The Terciado...shown singly vertically.
Storta shown singly with S guard.
Makara monster.
Japanese Museum blade.
Chinese Halibard with pattern to blade.
Group of 5 Storta.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes: In addition please see Forum references for possible influence on the Japanese Kastane blade presented in 1620 in the Philipines:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...chinese+blades Chinese halibard. With possible Makara to the blade similar to the Museum item?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...chinese+blades blade of similar form?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...chinese+blades perhaps reworked from a blade style shown?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...chinese+blades as above reworked blade?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...chinese+blades Terciado Sword. Spanish.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by various

… Being from Sri Lanka does not give you ownership of the Kastane...moreover it gives you the opportunity to debate this very little known sword on the hot anvil of this Forum and not Sir, to attempt to slur the efforts of others.

… It is extremely bad form to suggest that I may have not the respect because I am not Sri Lankan and to suggest that by speaking to me in the 3rd person that everyone else is able to identify the lion except me is entirely without merit and very insulting

… Fortunately academic debates are not necessarily won based upon who writes the most about the subject during the debate just as in person arguments are not won by the person who argues the loudest.

… and marked by the high readership of now more than 13,000 hits...so somebody is reading the thread, no?

… If you do not wish to take part then it is entirely up to you...This is a Forum... you know what happens on Forums... ?

… It is at this point that I opt out of this discussion and perhaps I will come back n another 12 months.

… You continue to describe the ranks of forum members fleeing this thread (when in fact there is one only who has decided to call it a day for now. )

...

Hello Ibrahiim
I must say i am deeply impressed with your ability to make a (this) thread survive like a real siege around the same specific topic. I realize the common of mortals would have long given up this endless (not to say arid) discussion … which you bravely decided to maintain at all costs .
I am amazed that you claim that 13000 views are an evidence that this thread is a hit; you are smarter than that. Almost half of the posts are yours; this will potentially keep the thread alive. Perhaps you should consider that people visit the thread to check on something actually new ?; with all due respect, remember the thread wasn’t started by you and the theme is Sri Lankan swords in general … not only kastanes .
Also when you infer that no one has yet given up its follow up, you might be navigating on false waters; are you sure some of us haven't already abandoned the ship ?
You are also certainly aware that, when you consider addressing you by your last name is an insult, you are pulling the rope a bit too tight; that Prasanna Weerakkody was calling for your attention with a certain emphasis i believe so but, no more than that may be concluded. After all, what is wrong in calling you by your last name ? you have also addressed Prasanna as Weerakkody … and Gavin as SwordsAntiqueWeapons; not noticing that he signs his posts with his real name.
And speaking of addressing style, may i dare pointing out that you are the only one here who starts all posts with the same salutation expression; never minding that surely the majority of our fellow members do not practice such language; one could hardly call such attitude the best of diplomacy .
It is also noteworthy that, often mentioning the forum as a back up to our (unilateral) approaches doesn't make it obvious that such symbiosis pertains only to one of us.
I confess i am not surprised when you are told that, by now, with this kaskara topic, you are beating a dead gargoyle … or, in my native expression, raining on the wet ... if you allow me the joke .
I have a feeling that, if one makes a survey, asking out there if it needs such many hundreds of posts to confirm whether the figure on the kastane pommel is a lion or a makara, people would find it somehow implausible; even a draw would take an infinitely shorter discussion … unless one insists in bringing back the same (or questionably new) material again and again .
I know after all this time that you are a sportsman who doesn’t interiorize this type of observations and will consider my catharsis as a non valid episode; reason why i don’t hesitate to release it ... in any case with all due appologies for whatever might have affected you .

[ariel]

Dear Prasanna Weerakkody:

Sorry to bug you, but have you had a chance to ask your friend about Ethuna Kadu?

As I told already, I am tremendously interested to know whether this is an historically- known weapon or just a modern Kalari implement.

Many thanks,
Ariel

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

Ariel,

Sorry about delay in checking up on your info. I checked with Ajantha and he says he was trained in the weapon by his grandfather. Beyond that it is somewhat difficult to trace “solid” evidence to the ancestry of the weapon at the moment. In a 14-15th Century text that includes arms carried to a battle include a reference to “Lelena Kadu” (= flexible sword) which may refer to a similar weapon.

I will keep checking and would let you know if something else comes up.

Even otherwise the Kalaripayath and Angam arts are generally considered sister arts that had close ties and aided in development of each other going back to the 16th Century. there are many records of warriors from each school training in the other and participating in gladiatorial contests.

On a general note there are significant cultural affinities between Kerala and Sri Lankan cultural elements in many other areas including dancing, food, language and even Surnames of people. this is attributed to the fact that the fisher-folk and traders used to travel with the monsoon currents which changed every 6 months and would spend part of the year resident in Kerala and in Southern Sri Lanka before returning every year.

Regards
Prasanna

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hello Ibrahiim
I must say i am deeply impressed with your ability to make a (this) thread survive like a real siege around the same specific topic. I realize the common of mortals would have long given up this endless (not to say arid) discussion … which you bravely decided to maintain at all costs .
I am amazed that you claim that 13000 views are an evidence that this thread is a hit; you are smarter than that. Almost half of the posts are yours; this will potentially keep the thread alive. Perhaps you should consider that people visit the thread to check on something actually new ?; with all due respect, remember the thread wasn’t started by you and the theme is Sri Lankan swords in general … not only kastanes .
Also when you infer that no one has yet given up its follow up, you might be navigating on false waters; are you sure some of us haven't already abandoned the ship ?
You are also certainly aware that, when you consider addressing you by your last name is an insult, you are pulling the rope a bit too tight; that Prasanna Weerakkody was calling for your attention with a certain emphasis i believe so but, no more than that may be concluded. After all, what is wrong in calling you by your last name ? you have also addressed Prasanna as Weerakkody … and Gavin as SwordsAntiqueWeapons; not noticing that he signs his posts with his real name.
And speaking of addressing style, may i dare pointing out that you are the only one here who starts all posts with the same salutation expression; never minding that surely the majority of our fellow members do not practice such language; one could hardly call such attitude the best of diplomacy .
It is also noteworthy that, often mentioning the forum as a back up to our (unilateral) approaches doesn't make it obvious that such symbiosis pertains only to one of us.
I confess i am not surprised when you are told that, by now, with this kaskara topic, you are beating a dead gargoyle … or, in my native expression, raining on the wet ... if you allow me the joke .
I have a feeling that, if one makes a survey, asking out there if it needs such many hundreds of posts to confirm whether the figure on the kastane pommel is a lion or a makara, people would find it somehow implausible; even a draw would take an infinitely shorter discussion … unless one insists in bringing back the same (or questionably new) material again and again .
I know after all this time that you are a sportsman who doesn’t interiorize this type of observations and will consider my catharsis as a non valid episode; reason why i don’t hesitate to release it ... in any case with all due apologies for whatever might have affected you .

Salaams Fernando, ~ How kind it is of you to write. I cannot however add anything of note to your topic since it contains not a drop of detail relevant to this discussion...or as you put it... non valid. Your joke about the gargoyle is so funny Fernando do you do comedy on television?

Joking apart however, I note your pathetic, apologetic final statement but trust that you may add finer detail in the quest to bolster this excellent thread...which is not only about the Kastane but other Sri Lankan weapons as well ...Everyone knows the Kastane formed a very large part of the discussion and that is not an unusual avenue for threads to take..and it took how long before someone jumped on that particular bandwagon?... suddenly after hundreds of posts to be referred back to its original #1 starter...

It is of sheer blinding amazement that you of all people would want to derail proceedings since after all the Kastane is more than likely of Portuguese collaborative origin and that surely the detail contained now far exceeded what went before...and that your letter forms such a personal attack upon my style of writing, etiquette and accepted formal expressions...

Sir, if you vehemently have something to say, off topic, then by all means send me a PM.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Fernando, ~ How kind it is of you to write. I cannot however add anything of note to your topic since it contains not a drop of detail relevant to this discussion...or as you put it... non valid. Your joke about the gargoyle is so funny Fernando do you do comedy on television?

Joking apart however, I note your pathetic, apologetic final statement but trust that you may add finer detail in the quest to bolster this excellent thread...which is not only about the Kastane but other Sri Lankan weapons as well ...Everyone knows the Kastane formed a very large part of the discussion and that is not an unusual avenue for threads to take..and it took how long before someone jumped on that particular bandwagon?... suddenly after hundreds of posts to be referred back to its original #1 starter...

It is of sheer blinding amazement that you of all people would want to derail proceedings since after all the Kastane is more than likely of Portuguese collaborative origin and that surely the detail contained now far exceeded what went before...and that your letter forms such a personal attack upon my style of writing, etiquette and accepted formal expressions...

Sir, if you vehemently have something to say, off topic, then by all means send me a PM.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Please take it down a notch, Ibrahiim. Try reading for content and intent rather than inferring insult where none may be intended. Like you, many forum members are not native English speakers.

Also, perhaps you could step back and take an objective look at your posting habits and style. You do not "break" any specific rules, but if your intention is to disregard or dismiss other member's comments and criticism (whether valid or otherwise), you ought not expect a different response.

[fernando]

Salaam Aleikum Ibrahiim,
I was sure you would take my lines with a rather open mind .
It is my pleasure that you made yourself a joke about me being a TV comedian; that pends to my favour in compensating my being rude in addressing you with previous my letter.
The gargoyle joke, you should have noticed, wasn't mine; i was just quoting it ... but i can't hide i found it funny, though .
What i had to be said about the Kastane is already said; i have nothing further to add.
And by the way, i am on the side of those who realize the pommel of the Kastane represents a lion but, i am absolutely ready to give it to you that it is a makara .
I don't think we need to exchange PMs as suggested; what i have said, well put or unfortunate, i consider it on topic, not off.
As also after having expressed my views on the eternization of the pommel thing, i have ran out of subjects.
I beg of you not to consider this as a personal matter, but more of an academical emphasis of a certain context, if i may arrogate myself such presumption; i don't have such familiarity with you to engage in personal reproaches.
A paz esteja contigo .

PS
Present post prepared before Andrew's input; only later released .