dagger series, nr3 the Flemish ballock dagger late 15thC

[Matchlock]

I I remember it correctly I have never seen a three-lobed dagger before. So this one is just highly remarkable in my eyes!

m

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I I remember it correctly I have never seen a three-lobed dagger before. So this one is just highly remarkable in my eyes!

m

actually there are quite a few.

The three lobes are THE reason I mentioned in post1 this type the mother of the typical landsknecht dagger . typical landsknecht dagger = picture d

around 1460 this ballock dagger came also with three wooden lobes. picture a and the pictures in my previous post.

A little later at the end of the 15th century the lobels of the ballock types were made of metal instead of wood. photo b. ( the classical ballock with wooden lobes also still exists next to it)

This dagger type evaluates in the first half of the 16th century with three short pareers rods and a sandwich metal grip. picture c

Alongside this type also the distinctive landsknecht dagger with three parry blades found live. picture d

best,
Jasper

[Matchlock]

Perfectly argued and documented, Jasper,


I have learned something new!


Thanks, and best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Perfectly argued and documented, Jasper,


I have learned something new!


Thanks, and best,
Michael

that's a compliment , thanks a lot Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Perfectly argued and documented, Jasper,


I have learned something new!


Thanks, and best,
Michael

Yikes Michael!! If you have learned something new....imagine my situation as I am flailing about just reading this and seeing these fantastic images from Jasper! This is truly spellbinding seeing such examples of these important daggers, and I am amazed at the triple 'lobe' examples.
It rather distorts the 'ballock' analogy yes?

I always thought it interesting that particular anatomical allusion allegedly led the cautious Victorians to determine a less suggestive term by calling it a 'kidney dagger'.

While the lobes clearly appear to be typically in two, I always wonder if there is any symbolic significance or is the configuration simply an aesthetic? With that, the triple lobe arrangement even more begs the question, why the lobes?

Thank you both again for these fascinating topics and all that you both do in your phenomenal entries on these pages!!!!


All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Hi Jim,


I am convinced that the three lobes on these daggers followed a well-documented Gothic stylistic tradition: the Gothic trefoil (German Dreipass).
E.g., smith's marks were often struck double or three times on Gothic and Early-Renaissance ironworks like axt blades and barrels. Also, the trefoil itself was often employed as a means of decoration in that period.


Attached please find, in order of appearance:


- double trefoil arch above the Virgin's head, French, ca. 1375

- trefoil pommel, painting of St. Martin, museum Mühlheim

- trefoil pommel, Italian saber, ~1520-25, author's colln. (3 images)

- trefoil pommel, ca. 1520

- Italian swords with trefoil pommels, early 16th c., from Armi Bianche Italiane.

- trefoil-shaped padlock, mid-16th c.

- trefoil-shaped staghorn flask, extremely rare, engraved with an annunciation scene, Nuremberg, ca. 1540, author's colln. (3 images)

- trefoil element in Gothic architecture: arch on left side (Master of the Annunciation of Aix, ca. 1440)



Indeed, I'm eager to 'drink' more from Jaspers rich well of expertise!



Best wishes,
Michael

[fernando]

C'mon Jim,
Have you never heard of three lobed kidneys ?
Here have you been ?

[cornelistromp]

a later version from the late 15th century, here the ballocks have disappeared totally and are replaced by a parry plate. there is still a engraved pommel plate and a calyx shaped grip.