Shashka for comments

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th January 2014, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent link Ibrahiim! and this shows the complexity of these ethnic groups in these regions. Actually the Kalash people are linked to the Nuristani (Kafirs) by the same polytheistic religion and in degree with other traditions similar. The tradition of the ancestry to Alexander seems more to similarities to aspects of Greek culture but cannot be proven genetically. Still these groups are fascinating anthropologically as they are so culturally isolated in the regions they occupy.

The fact that this sword seems connected to them and reflecting such a confluence of the symbolic motifs associated with them borne on a sword of the surrounding culture makes this weapon unique indeed

Salaams Jim ~ I have to say that I think the writing style is Georgian or Armenian. I have looked at the decorative floral Saz leaf which is correctly identified as Turkish by Martin Lubojacky (they must have sold 2 copies at least as I have one) though it is not only Turkish as I have seen tiles from Persia decorated with similar form as the Iznik.

I call upon Ariel for his expert view on the script in the cartouche.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 7th January 2014, 10:46 AM

I am on vacation, with only rare access to the Internet ( so happens, I got access by chance this very moment), but far, far away from my sharpies and books. Therefore, forgive me for not posting any examples.

IMHO, this is a typical Afghani blade based on the structure of fullers. I have a couple of Pulwars with exactly the same arrangement. To the best of my recollection, there were also brass inlays polished flush with the blade.
The handle and the scabbard are Caucasian, no doubt, but since shashkas were made also in Turkey ( mainly after Circassian exile ) and (less so) in Persia, these later features do not help much.

Caucasian "ghulams" were integral and very significant part of Iranian armies going all the way back to the reign of Shah Abbas the Great: Georgi Saakadze was one of his commanders against the Ottomans, another Georgian, Allahverdi Undiladze, commanded the entire Ghulam corps in his campains in Afghanistan and was the governor of the Fars province , an Armenian Melik Khan was yet another Caucasian commander ( BTW, the artillery corps was built and commanded by the British brothers Anthony and Robert Sherley), etc. The fighting units were composed mainly from the Georgians, Armenians and Circassians but ethnic Persians themselves were regularly given administrative positions. This tradition continued even with Nader Shah.

Thus, it would not be impossible for one of the veterans to bring back some Afghani souvenirs ( a sword?) the blade of which would be recycled into a traditional shashka. The minimal curvature of tulwar/pulwar blades was ideal for shashkas, as opposed to highly curved Persian shamshirs.

Yu.Miller, in his book Caucasian Weapons ( Hermitage collection) shows even stranger Frankensword: a Khanda blade with a classical Georgian handle. Perhaps, from the same campaign:-)

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2014, 07:00 PM

Ibrahiim thank you for your astute assessment on the script! which seems to further support the observations of Martin, Teodor and Antique Arms regarding Afghan provenance as well as the Ottoman influence in the mounts.
Ariel your knowledge on these weapons, in particular of course shashkas and Central Asian swords is remarkable, as evidenced by the incredibly detailed material you have posted while not even near your references!

As Antique Arms has noted, there are some basic similarities in blade features in the Chinese weapons illustrated in the articles by Philip Tom, however these indicate later influence from apparently 'Near Eastern' and perhaps 'qalachuri' blades with segmented fuller panels

I am unclear on these influences appearing in the Chinese blades in the 19th century but I think the possible scenarios for the confluence of Afghan and Georgian features in the sword overall as earlier suggested by Teodor and masterfully described further by Ariel give us an excellent 'forensic' analysis of this sword .

Gentlemen this is exactly the kind of discussion and exchange of observations I always hope for on these pages! and I cannot thank you all enough for your valuable participation. Sharing this kind of data enables us all to learn from the stuff which is often not in the books, and from experience. Outstanding!

Gavin Nugent · 8th January 2014, 04:29 AM

Some further ideas for thought.

I am with Ariel in that this blade is from the Afghanistan region and Sindh, not Bukhara or elsewhere. The blade is typical of the forms seen in these regions even if the scabbard fitting style is not. The brass inlay in the blade is also typical of the regions. Of note is the long forte before the fullering arrangements...this is typically a Persian influenced thing to my eye, based on the many trade blades from the region.

The grip slab profile is Caucasian but the manner in which the grip slabs are attached is also known in the Afghan regions. There is what appears to be the remains of a calynx at the end of a simple applied top grip strap, something also typically seen in the Afghan regions.

Many Ottoman made Shashka are known and considering the long relationship that Russia and Turkey have had over the centuries, both good and bad, and that many people from both regions are known to have settled East of the Caspian Sea, these ethnic roots could have been the influence behind this examples scabbard fittings, and perhaps a preferred hilt style to the owner.

From memory, the fuller styles are seen on Kukri, Persian Shamshir, Indian Sabres, Chinese sabres.

Gavin

TVV · 8th January 2014, 06:57 PM

This is why this forum is so great: the knowledge and ability of the members to examine all angles in identifying a sword or a dagger. An Afghan origin of the blade is certainly not what I originally expected, but the evidence seems to certainly point in that direction.

Once again, many thanks to all participants in this thread,

Teodor

7th January 2014, 10:46 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am on vacation, with only rare access to the Internet ( so happens, I got access by chance this very moment), but far, far away from my sharpies and books. Therefore, forgive me for not posting any examples. IMHO, this is a typical Afghani blade based on the structure of fullers. I have a couple of Pulwars with exactly the same arrangement. To the best of my recollection, there were also brass inlays polished flush with the blade. The handle and the scabbard are Caucasian, no doubt, but since shashkas were made also in Turkey ( mainly after Circassian exile ) and (less so) in Persia, these later features do not help much. Caucasian "ghulams" were integral and very significant part of Iranian armies going all the way back to the reign of Shah Abbas the Great: Georgi Saakadze was one of his commanders against the Ottomans, another Georgian, Allahverdi Undiladze, commanded the entire Ghulam corps in his campains in Afghanistan and was the governor of the Fars province , an Armenian Melik Khan was yet another Caucasian commander ( BTW, the artillery corps was built and commanded by the British brothers Anthony and Robert Sherley), etc. The fighting units were composed mainly from the Georgians, Armenians and Circassians but ethnic Persians themselves were regularly given administrative positions. This tradition continued even with Nader Shah. Thus, it would not be impossible for one of the veterans to bring back some Afghani souvenirs ( a sword?) the blade of which would be recycled into a traditional shashka. The minimal curvature of tulwar/pulwar blades was ideal for shashkas, as opposed to highly curved Persian shamshirs. Yu.Miller, in his book Caucasian Weapons ( Hermitage collection) shows even stranger Frankensword: a Khanda blade with a classical Georgian handle. Perhaps, from the same campaign:-)

7th January 2014, 07:00 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Ibrahiim thank you for your astute assessment on the script! which seems to further support the observations of Martin, Teodor and Antique Arms regarding Afghan provenance as well as the Ottoman influence in the mounts. Ariel your knowledge on these weapons, in particular of course shashkas and Central Asian swords is remarkable, as evidenced by the incredibly detailed material you have posted while not even near your references! As Antique Arms has noted, there are some basic similarities in blade features in the Chinese weapons illustrated in the articles by Philip Tom, however these indicate later influence from apparently 'Near Eastern' and perhaps 'qalachuri' blades with segmented fuller panels I am unclear on these influences appearing in the Chinese blades in the 19th century but I think the possible scenarios for the confluence of Afghan and Georgian features in the sword overall as earlier suggested by Teodor and masterfully described further by Ariel give us an excellent 'forensic' analysis of this sword . Gentlemen this is exactly the kind of discussion and exchange of observations I always hope for on these pages! and I cannot thank you all enough for your valuable participation. Sharing this kind of data enables us all to learn from the stuff which is often not in the books, and from experience. Outstanding!

8th January 2014, 04:29 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Some further ideas for thought. I am with Ariel in that this blade is from the Afghanistan region and Sindh, not Bukhara or elsewhere. The blade is typical of the forms seen in these regions even if the scabbard fitting style is not. The brass inlay in the blade is also typical of the regions. Of note is the long forte before the fullering arrangements...this is typically a Persian influenced thing to my eye, based on the many trade blades from the region. The grip slab profile is Caucasian but the manner in which the grip slabs are attached is also known in the Afghan regions. There is what appears to be the remains of a calynx at the end of a simple applied top grip strap, something also typically seen in the Afghan regions. Many Ottoman made Shashka are known and considering the long relationship that Russia and Turkey have had over the centuries, both good and bad, and that many people from both regions are known to have settled East of the Caspian Sea, these ethnic roots could have been the influence behind this examples scabbard fittings, and perhaps a preferred hilt style to the owner. From memory, the fuller styles are seen on Kukri, Persian Shamshir, Indian Sabres, Chinese sabres. Gavin

8th January 2014, 06:57 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,725	This is why this forum is so great: the knowledge and ability of the members to examine all angles in identifying a sword or a dagger. An Afghan origin of the blade is certainly not what I originally expected, but the evidence seems to certainly point in that direction. Once again, many thanks to all participants in this thread, Teodor