Shashka for comments

TVV · 2nd January 2014, 09:37 PM

Thank you your input Gentlemen,

I also thought about a Central Asian origin of the blade, but the hilt and scabbard are very non-Central Asian, and I am yet to see evidence of Bukharan blades flowing west, as opposed to the other way around which is well documented. Chechen work may be a very good guess, and I will look at Askhabov's book for similar examples. Per Rivkin, Tiflis was indeed a major sword production and trade center, and the script may be in Georgian or an imitation of Georgian. For what it is worth, the sword was collected (and still remains) in the Balkans, so at least the concluding point of its journey is known.

I suspect that if anyone can read the script or at least identify what language it is intended to resemble, it may provide a great clue on the blade's origin.

Teodor

ArmsAndAntiques · 3rd January 2014, 03:12 AM

The more I look at it, the more the fuller design appears Central Asian and in particular Afghan. I've had numerous pulwars with this type of crudely done fuller work. However, I'd agree that the overall shape is more Caucasian than anything else.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2014, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmsAndAntiques

The more I look at it, the more the fuller design appears Central Asian and in particular Afghan. I've had numerous pulwars with this type of crudely done fuller work. However, I'd agree that the overall shape is more Caucasian than anything else.

Most interesting observation A&A and sounds like you've had some good exposure to weaponry from these regions. May I ask more about the paluoars you're referring to, any chance of images or examples of this type fuller pattern on them. I've long been curious about just where in Afghanistan these paluoars were produced. My impression has always been they were more Deccani influenced tulwars from Northwest frontier regions.

ArmsAndAntiques · 5th January 2014, 12:25 AM

Hi Jim,

Unfortunately I don't have any photos of those as I had them several years ago before I began to systematically keep photos of my pieces. However, just a few weeks ago I had dinner with a friend of mine, an Afghan war vet, who picked up some pieces there and if I remember right at least two of the pieces he showed me had similar fullering.

While I can't produce the photos of those Afghan pieces, I would feel that it would be interesting for someone to show a photo of a definite Caucasian origin piece with a similar blade. I also would say that the fuller work trending towards Central Asian, is also supported by Chinese swords with similar fullering as well, something picked up from Persian-Central Asian aesthetics, as Philip Tom has written about quite eloquently.

Best
LL

Jim McDougall · 5th January 2014, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmsAndAntiques

Hi Jim,

Unfortunately I don't have any photos of those as I had them several years ago before I began to systematically keep photos of my pieces. However, just a few weeks ago I had dinner with a friend of mine, an Afghan war vet, who picked up some pieces there and if I remember right at least two of the pieces he showed me had similar fullering.

While I can't produce the photos of those Afghan pieces, I would feel that it would be interesting for someone to show a photo of a definite Caucasian origin piece with a similar blade. I also would say that the fuller work trending towards Central Asian, is also supported by Chinese swords with similar fullering as well, something picked up from Persian-Central Asian aesthetics, as Philip Tom has written about quite eloquently.

Best
LL

It would indeed be helpful to have photos of the fullering arrangements from both the paluoars mentioned and of Caucasian examples, but I admit the Chinese aspect is extremely intriguing. Could you say more on which of Philip's works reference these kinds of blades in Chinese swords?

I have come up with something which might lend toward the plausibly Afghan provenance for the blade you have suggested. In considering the rather crude fuller detail I must admit that that would be far out of character of Chechen blades.

That curious device which seems to resemble some kind of bird or other highly stylized image, while reminding me of certain designs from the Caucusus has also brought to mind another region using these kinds of animist pictograph devices. This is the area of Afghanistan now called Nuristan in which the Kafirs occupied. This area was once termed Kafiristan and the native tribes practiced a polytheistic animist religion until they were subjugated by Emir Abdur Rahman Khan of Afghanistan in 1896. While they became Muslim, they still carried forth elements of their folk religion and perhaps that may explain the Islamic cartouche coupled with this apparently animist device on the blade.

I have noticed that as you suggest the curvature of some Afghan sabres of shashka form is much the same, and possibly we might find confluence in classification with this Nuristani possibility. I think this could answer in part the provenance of the blade, but the present mounts I believe may still be from Tiblisi (Tiflis)regions and Transcaucasian artisans there.

TVV · 6th January 2014, 02:27 AM

Gentlemen,

Thank you for keeping the discussion alive. Here are some additional pictures of the blade, showing two decorative panels on both sides, some more detail of the fullering and also the tang.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2014, 08:24 PM

Thank you so much for the additional photos Teodor, and these remarkably clarify exactly what Antique Arms was saying. If you look at the backstrap of the hilt right at the blade you will see the fixture which is loosely termed the 'calyx'. This is one of the most profound indicators of Central Asian origin, and in this case specifically Afghanistan (look at this location on Khyber knives). I therefore withdraw my Chechen/Caucasian assessment with this new evidence which is of course compelling.
Further I have looked at examples of Afghan shashkas and the profile and curvature of the blade is extremely similar.

What is even more compelling, and remarkable are the views of the other motif on this blade, which even more convinces me that this is from the Nuristan regions of Afghanistan or from that particular tribal culture.
This area of Nuristan is comprised of the former Kafiristan (written of by Roberts in 1896, and famed for Kipling's rendition in "The Man Who Wuld be King"). The Kafirs were subjugated by Afghan Amir Adur Rahman Khan in 1896 and converted to Islam, while the somewhat associated Kalash people of Chitral in Pakistan retain their original animist folk religion and traditions.
The amalgamation of Islamic cartouche (which may be an imitation?) and the pictographic and geometric motif resembling Kafir work suggest of course possible cross diffusion .
I would consider this from regions indicated and probably from early years of the 20th century.

6th January 2014, 02:27 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Gentlemen, Thank you for keeping the discussion alive. Here are some additional pictures of the blade, showing two decorative panels on both sides, some more detail of the fullering and also the tang. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

2nd January 2014, 09:37 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Thank you your input Gentlemen, I also thought about a Central Asian origin of the blade, but the hilt and scabbard are very non-Central Asian, and I am yet to see evidence of Bukharan blades flowing west, as opposed to the other way around which is well documented. Chechen work may be a very good guess, and I will look at Askhabov's book for similar examples. Per Rivkin, Tiflis was indeed a major sword production and trade center, and the script may be in Georgian or an imitation of Georgian. For what it is worth, the sword was collected (and still remains) in the Balkans, so at least the concluding point of its journey is known. I suspect that if anyone can read the script or at least identify what language it is intended to resemble, it may provide a great clue on the blade's origin. Teodor

3rd January 2014, 03:12 AM	#2
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	The more I look at it, the more the fuller design appears Central Asian and in particular Afghan. I've had numerous pulwars with this type of crudely done fuller work. However, I'd agree that the overall shape is more Caucasian than anything else.

5th January 2014, 12:25 AM	#4
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	Hi Jim, Unfortunately I don't have any photos of those as I had them several years ago before I began to systematically keep photos of my pieces. However, just a few weeks ago I had dinner with a friend of mine, an Afghan war vet, who picked up some pieces there and if I remember right at least two of the pieces he showed me had similar fullering. While I can't produce the photos of those Afghan pieces, I would feel that it would be interesting for someone to show a photo of a definite Caucasian origin piece with a similar blade. I also would say that the fuller work trending towards Central Asian, is also supported by Chinese swords with similar fullering as well, something picked up from Persian-Central Asian aesthetics, as Philip Tom has written about quite eloquently. Best LL

6th January 2014, 08:24 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Thank you so much for the additional photos Teodor, and these remarkably clarify exactly what Antique Arms was saying. If you look at the backstrap of the hilt right at the blade you will see the fixture which is loosely termed the 'calyx'. This is one of the most profound indicators of Central Asian origin, and in this case specifically Afghanistan (look at this location on Khyber knives). I therefore withdraw my Chechen/Caucasian assessment with this new evidence which is of course compelling. Further I have looked at examples of Afghan shashkas and the profile and curvature of the blade is extremely similar. What is even more compelling, and remarkable are the views of the other motif on this blade, which even more convinces me that this is from the Nuristan regions of Afghanistan or from that particular tribal culture. This area of Nuristan is comprised of the former Kafiristan (written of by Roberts in 1896, and famed for Kipling's rendition in "The Man Who Wuld be King"). The Kafirs were subjugated by Afghan Amir Adur Rahman Khan in 1896 and converted to Islam, while the somewhat associated Kalash people of Chitral in Pakistan retain their original animist folk religion and traditions. The amalgamation of Islamic cartouche (which may be an imitation?) and the pictographic and geometric motif resembling Kafir work suggest of course possible cross diffusion . I would consider this from regions indicated and probably from early years of the 20th century.