European Piha Kaetta

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

Am i missing something? Why are we making a big deal about a cast reproduction that, to my eyes at least, doesn't seem to hold a candle to fine examples of the real thing?
To me this is something to get excited about, not the cast repro above.

Actually I believe you are, and interesting to see this intriguing European made example of these outstanding Sinhalese knives. This posting was from back in the great discussion days and anything that caught the fancy of B.I. was hardly presented lightly. What we are seeing here is not meant to be a comparison, but a historic instance reflecting international diplomacy and trade and much of what we study here has a great deal to do with history.
I think Ariel has expressed this perspective perfectly.

A&A, outstanding information and follow up on this knife and thank you so much for bringing this thread up and sharing it here. Well done!

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually I believe you are, and interesting to see this intriguing European made example of these outstanding Sinhalese knives. This posting was from back in the great discussion days and anything that caught the fancy of B.I. was hardly presented lightly. What we are seeing here is not meant to be a comparison, but a historic instance reflecting international diplomacy and trade and much of what we study here has a great deal to do with history.
I think Ariel has expressed this perspective perfectly.

We will have to agree to disagree then. While it may be interesting to discuss how and why this copy was used in international diplomacy and the history of that i see no such discussion on that subject taking place here. Why was this piece created in the first place? Was this a presentation piece? To whom and when? I might see some merit in that discussion if there was some historical perspective to it. As an object on to itself i see nothing particularly fantastic about this piece.
I also disagree that this is the same as outside cultural motifs being incorporated into the art of European culture. Those artist still created something original. This is just a copy and IMHO it has no ethnographic integrity. The Javanese keris may well have it's influences in some Indian dagger form, but it is not a copy of that form. If it were we would find keris forms in India. Those India daggers served as an inspiration for development and the keris evolved in Java as a unique form. And if the Russians made yataghans in Zlatoust, the Venetians copied Moroccan Nimchas, did they cast them in one piece to artsy copper paperweights or were they forging real bladed weapons for real use?

[Jim McDougall]

Very well put rebuttal David, and now that you have expanded on your comments I can see your perspective, which is interesting, and of course distinctly your opinion. I did not mean to imply this particular piece was actually used in a diplomatic role, but that it was clearly produced during a period where colonial and trade activity had attracted great interest in items of exotica.
As you well point out, this item indeed does not have any specific integrity from an ethnographic posture, that is, it is not culturally representative per se. However it does seem interesting to me, and apparently to others, as I have indicated earlier, from perhaps an artistic and somewhat historic point of view . Antique Arms clearly reflected his interest by reviving this thread of nearly 8 years ago by sharing data which was not only pertinent but extremely helpful in updating this thread, exactly the kind of action many of us here hope for in building collective and archived knowledge on many topics.

Colin, thank you so much for the excellent example you have posted of the Maori club, which illustrates perfectly exactly what I was trying to point out.

I think we are all aware of copies and reproductions of arms and armor, which of course are typically regarded as quite unimportant in the view of those of us who are historically attuned in the collection of arms. However many examples of such arms from earlier periods have actually become antiquities in their own right, case in point those from the atelier of Ernst Schmitt of Germany. Here the copies of medieval and renaissance arms and armor, skillfully crafted and carefully researched were so well executed that many ended up in museum displays years later. While admittedly 'copies', they have gained their own place in the field of arms collecting.

I do see your point however in noting that the character of this piece does not comply with the production of the original weapons in that it is more aligned with artistic merit than sound functionality. I would note here that this is often the case in many weapons of the 18th century forward such as many court type swords and fraternal swords, which were distinctly accoutrements of fashion and regalia, but still count as collectible arms in many fields.

Thank you for explaining your position David, and while we agree to disagree here, it is good that we are able to elaborate on the reasons for our opinions for the benefit of discussion.

[Oriental-Arms]

A side note, I have seen several similar piha by the same caster. Just as an example see attached. Heavy silver plated brass, 35 cm long

[spiral]

To me their nice curiosity's or wall hangers, but hardly arms....

There not intended to be functional, so there not arms.

spiral

[ariel]

Folks, I think the opinions went in the opposite directions, but the courses were parallel so that we could never reach a common destination

The French "piha" was not intended to be a weapon: it was made as an object of art after the fashion of an exotic Sinhalese knife. It could have been used as a letter opener, no more. ( And, BTW, the original Pihas were also not weapons, but rather utility knives; the tasks of the two examples were similar but somewhat different).

We just cannot judge the French example on the basis of its fighting capabilities, and there are plenty of examples among our traditional " sharpies".

Javanese kerises lost their fighting function long ago, with the exception of rare cases of domestic violence, for which purpose the French Piha would also do swimmingly. Still, there are people who collect kerises for their technologically useless pamor patterns, exotic wood, carvings etc. Most of the daggers in the new Robert Hales' book were never drawn in anger, they were just expensive baubles. We have heard from one of the members that the ferocious Omani kattaras were in fact just dancing props. The "golden age" of Caucasian kindjals came well after they outlived their fighting purpose and became a part of the costume, akin to the pocket watch with a thick golden chain.

The French Pihas ( thanks, Artzi, for providing the justification to use the plural :-)) are just nice artistic renditions. Any Piha collector would love to add them to his bunch of the "real stuff" with no fear of being called a sissy.

Just relax, there is no sense going ballistic because some Frenchie made a pretty paperweight:-)

[spiral]

Perhaps I was wrong to use the word arms... Thy are for scribes after all.

I just should have said their virtualy non functional...

Paper weights, wall hangers {art} & letter openers not withstanding.

But each to their own.

full size Cast brass kukris copied from originals turn up on ebay & auctions sometimes, there good cast renditions.... They usually reach about $15.

In my youth I worked in a foundry... I could have copy cast hundreds of such items every day....Pihas, kuks whatever....

So to me they don't have much allure, other than any history attached.

The genuine featured Piha is a nice example of an ethnographic arm though... woops.. I mean an ethnographic & functional tool..

spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

Javanese kermises lost their fighting function long ago, with the exception of rare cases of domestic violence, for which purpose the French Piha would also do swimmingly. Still, there are people who collect kermises for their technologically useless pamor patterns, exotic wood, carvings etc.

Ariel, i am afraid that there is a rather large hole in your understanding of keris if you consider pamor patterns "useless" and if you have no grasp of the spiritual importance of the exotic woods that are often employed in keris dress. The cultural significance of these things are huge, pamor patterns are not merely artistic designs for art's sake alone but carry deep significance and purpose. That for me is a large part of the difference here between these french "art" Pihas and the real thing. It is devoid of cultural significance and is merely a "pretty" object.
I might also suggest that while Pihas are certainly not combat weapons they are a bit too extravagant to be considered simple utility knives. Certainly there is some ritual application involved here, no? These knives have a rather complex construction and often involve the use of somewhat precious materials such as ivory, silver and gold. Most utility knives are a bit simpler.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Folks, I think the opinions went in the opposite directions, but the courses were parallel so that we could never reach a common destination

The French "piha" was not intended to be a weapon: it was made as an object of art after the fashion of an exotic Sinhalese knife. It could have been used as a letter opener, no more. ( And, BTW, the original Pihas were also not weapons, but rather utility knives; the tasks of the two examples were similar but somewhat different).

We just cannot judge the French example on the basis of its fighting capabilities, and there are plenty of examples among our traditional " sharpies".

Javanese kerises lost their fighting function long ago, with the exception of rare cases of domestic violence, for which purpose the French Piha would also do swimmingly. Still, there are people who collect kerises for their technologically useless pamor patterns, exotic wood, carvings etc. Most of the daggers in the new Robert Hales' book were never drawn in anger, they were just expensive baubles. We have heard from one of the members that the ferocious Omani kattaras were in fact just dancing props. The "golden age" of Caucasian kindjals came well after they outlived their fighting purpose and became a part of the costume, akin to the pocket watch with a thick golden chain.

The French Pihas ( thanks, Artzi, for providing the justification to use the plural :-)) are just nice artistic renditions. Any Piha collector would love to add them to his bunch of the "real stuff" with no fear of being called a sissy.

Just relax, there is no sense going ballistic because some Frenchie made a pretty paperweight:-)

Salaams Ariel, Do you still have your old Omani Battle Sword? They(the original form) are from even earlier than we thought and the suggestion is nearer 600.AD. By the way its not the curved Kattara which is the dancer... its the straight flexible OMANI Sayf..1744AD. In addition it is safer to consider that weapon as a badge of office rather than simply relegate it to the dancing prop. It is an heraldic item in praise of an entire Dynasty- not only for dancing.
In so far as this thread I see no comparison in linking it to cheap copies since it is clearly stamped and with a full European provenance. It is simply a project piece. It is hardly comparable to the excellent workmanship on the original so I am a little surprised that it passed muster when a better more expert effort could have been made.. The French made superb quality Koummya for example.. Quite often workshops take on a design but provided they are honest about it and stamp it correctly it simply enters the fold as that... and is indeed part of the ethnographic story. Many copies (unstamped ) were knocked up in western workshops of Sri-Lankan swords for belly dancing and Up the Khyber Martini Henry copies were being turned out regularly.
In this case we have a single stamped Piha Kheta; which is what it is; A project item.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.