An Odd Indian Sword for Identification and Comment

[A.alnakkas]

the inscription reminds me of ones found on modern indian tourist items. This not to suggest that the piece is fake, not at all... but the inscription might be added recently and with the top inscription not meaning anything.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

the inscription reminds me of ones found on modern indian tourist items. This not to suggest that the piece is fake, not at all... but the inscription might be added recently and with the top inscription not meaning anything.

I have wondered the same thing. That's one reason I was so interested in a translation. No doubt the blade, scabbard, and fittings are old. The blade is quality wootz. The scabbard covering speaks for itself, and the fittings are chiseled steel....not something seen everyday, and no easy feat. But I have wondered if the cartouche was added later to make it more sellable and "blingy". If only we had a Farsi reader...we would likely know the truth.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Charles,
Not Farsi I'm afraid, one of my my son's friends is a native Farsi speaker so from the horse's mouth so to speak. She identified it as Arabic but the top cartouche did not make any sense. Sorry I couldn't help any further.
My Regards,
Norman.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Charles,
Not Farsi I'm afraid, one of my my son's friends is a native Farsi speaker so from the horse's mouth so to speak. She identified it as Arabic but the top cartouche did not make any sense. Sorry I couldn't help any further.
My Regards,
Norman.

Looking more and more like an added cartouche. Disappointing, but I still really like the sword.

[BANDOOK]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Looking more and more like an added cartouche. Disappointing, but I still really like the sword.

I have seen the pictures and I must say that this sword is a reproduction made in Udaipur,rajasthan
if you look up in ebay you may see many of such swords being offered as antiques.cheers

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

I have seen the pictures and I must say that this sword is a reproduction made in Udaipur,rajasthan
if you look up in ebay you may see many of such swords being offered as antiques.cheers

Please provide us with any links to ended auctions of such swords.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

I have seen the pictures and I must say that this sword is a reproduction made in Udaipur,rajasthan
if you look up in ebay you may see many of such swords being offered as antiques.cheers

I think it is neither brand new nor repro being made yesterday. However, the cartouches remind me of late Indian made. Attached below are late 20th Century cartouches on contemporary blades. The hilt shown below is also mid/late 20th Century, similarly chiseled with 2 birds. Whereas the new wootz-like blades are being produced nowadays, this one is not. I think it is older blade with later added cartouches and fittings. It is a nicely looking sword nevertheless.

[spiral]

I agree scabbard fittings & hilt appear very high quality but rather fresh.

I believe Alex could offer good input here.

Spiral

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Looking more and more like an added cartouche. Disappointing, but I still really like the sword.

Salaams CharlesS,

Here's another attempt to read the inscriptions on your sword from another person:

"Yes, the part at the bottom of the inscription is straight and easy to read. The problem is in the part at the top. This part is deliberately meant to be cryptic. Perhaps, to help decrypt it, the number 66 is given underneath it. Which alphabet, Greek or Arabic, was the reference for the inscriber (as far as numerical values of the alphabet)? Could 60 be also 30+30, 40+20, etc.? Finding answers to these questions may help.

Most likely this part of the inscription is written in Arabic characters, and is supposed to be read left to right. Left to right, it starts with الر , then comes تا , and finally comes با . "Al rataba" is a word in Arabic that describes the actions of some people, especially when these actions are routine. But be ware that this reading is a guess. There may be other readings."

Hope this helps!

As ever,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams CharlesS,

Here's another attempt to read the inscriptions on your sword from another person:

"Yes, the part at the bottom of the inscription is straight and easy to read. The problem is in the part at the top. This part is deliberately meant to be cryptic. Perhaps, to help decrypt it, the number 66 is given underneath it. Which alphabet, Greek or Arabic, was the reference for the inscriber (as far as numerical values of the alphabet)? Could 60 be also 30+30, 40+20, etc.? Finding answers to these questions may help.

Most likely this part of the inscription is written in Arabic characters, and is supposed to be read left to right. Left to right, it starts with الر , then comes تا , and finally comes با . "Al rataba" is a word in Arabic that describes the actions of some people, especially when these actions are routine. But be ware that this reading is a guess. There may be other readings."

Hope this helps!

As ever,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Thanks very much Ahmed! This is very interesting stuff.

[Richard G]

I think at least the following two aspects of the hilt are unusual:-

Why are there two fighting herons? A falcon taking down a heron is a common motif on Persian and Persian influenced swords, along with a lion taking down an antelope or bull. The symbolism is obvious, representing the ability of the owner or his loyalties to overcome his inferiors. I wonder did the maker of this hilt understand this?

Are the herons the right way up? I would say that on 99%, if not 100%, of examples or pictures I have seen motifs and inscriptions on the quillon block are designed to be viewed with the blade down. Presumably this is because the quillon block can be seen when the sword is slung and would look somewhat silly if the motif etc. was upside down. It is of course possible the motif on the outside could be the "correct" way up to be viewed when worn whilst, on the inside, the other way up, to be viewed by the drawer of the sword. If both are the wrong way up I would again wonder whether or not the maker really understood what he was doing.

It would be interesting to read other opinions.

Regards
Richard