An Odd Indian Sword for Identification and Comment

Jim McDougall · 18th December 2013, 04:17 AM

Oops! You're absolutely right Charles, looks like I really bought that one! of course it isn't brass, and not sure how I thought it was. Also a bit of a red herring was the suggestion that Georgian swords did not use brass, and I did not realize that we were actually considering that this sword was British. In fact many Georgian officers swords were indeed in brass, typically gilt. The relief work on this hilt strongly suggests Bidri work, which falls nicely in place with the Hydrabad associations as the region known for this dramatic gold with blackened background is geographically close.

Thank you for the observation on the ricasso 'block' which well explains the feature and possible refitting of an older blade.

After some thought and in looking at this hilt form, it is indeed of Persian form and recalls similarly formed solid hilts of the Deccan from 17th century and later, but which usually have flueret style quillon terminals and often knuckleguards. In the southern India preference, these are often however in brass.

With the strong diplomatic and cultural ties between northwest Indian regions and Deccani, the diffusion of many weapons and their features are often seen .

In particular I recall a shamshir hilted tulwar which had a solid steel hilt in loosely this form but quite plain, knuckleguard and with the typically seen tulwar style langet and Ottoman influenced quillon terminals, again as on most tulwars of Indo-Persian hilt with disc pommel.
What was fascinating was that it was mounted with what was distinctly a British M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and with koftgari decorative panel at the forte.

This brings to mind once again the hybridization of these arms between India and Georgian Great Britain, and the importance of both diplomatic and award swords often presented at Royal durbars.

Returning to the potential Urdu in the cartouche, though this language was primarily associated with the northwest in India, it was also present in the courts of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan in the Deccan.

The heron or crane images in the motif remain a puzzle, but it is known that Mughal favor of botanicals and varying animals and birds in motif is very much part of their decorative art in their material culture. These kinds of allegorical and symbolic depictions are typical in Sh'ia artistic context, such as the Simorgh on many blades .

Absolutely magnificent sabre!! and hopefully more ideas will come in. I think your observations regarding Napoleonic influences are well placed. The French were prominently placed in advisory situations in Deccani courts in those times, and it is reciprocally interesting to see the sabres for French officers in 'oriental' style as well.

AJ1356 · 18th December 2013, 12:30 PM

Charles,
Can you post a bigger/better picture of the cartouche?

CharlesS · 18th December 2013, 01:57 PM

Hopefully this will help.

AhmedH · 19th December 2013, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Hopefully this will help.

Dear CharlesS,

I'm very sorry for posting the above photo to an Urdu speaking guy without your permission. Please do not be angry, nor misunderstand me. I've tried my best to decipher the inscriptions, but the above posting that I've submitted shows my limitations regarding this script.

Please accept my apologies, Sir. Thanks a lot in advance.

-Ahmed-

CharlesS · 19th December 2013, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Dear CharlesS,

I'm very sorry for posting the above photo to an Urdu speaking guy without your permission. Please do not be angry, nor misunderstand me. I've tried my best to decipher the inscriptions, but the above posting that I've submitted shows my limitations regarding this script.

Please accept my apologies, Sir. Thanks a lot in advance.

-Ahmed-

Ahmed,

Apologies are hardly necessary. Thanks for your efforts. We are all just trying to learn a little bit here, so I am very grateful for your attempts.

It is certainly becoming clearer and clearer the locale of at least the origin of the blade. Its seems it must be from Persia or western Afghanistan.

A.alnakkas · 20th December 2013, 01:55 PM

the inscription reminds me of ones found on modern indian tourist items. This not to suggest that the piece is fake, not at all... but the inscription might be added recently and with the top inscription not meaning anything.

CharlesS · 20th December 2013, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

the inscription reminds me of ones found on modern indian tourist items. This not to suggest that the piece is fake, not at all... but the inscription might be added recently and with the top inscription not meaning anything.

I have wondered the same thing. That's one reason I was so interested in a translation. No doubt the blade, scabbard, and fittings are old. The blade is quality wootz. The scabbard covering speaks for itself, and the fittings are chiseled steel....not something seen everyday, and no easy feat. But I have wondered if the cartouche was added later to make it more sellable and "blingy". If only we had a Farsi reader...we would likely know the truth.

18th December 2013, 01:57 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Hopefully this will help. Attached Images

18th December 2013, 04:17 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Oops! You're absolutely right Charles, looks like I really bought that one! of course it isn't brass, and not sure how I thought it was. Also a bit of a red herring was the suggestion that Georgian swords did not use brass, and I did not realize that we were actually considering that this sword was British. In fact many Georgian officers swords were indeed in brass, typically gilt. The relief work on this hilt strongly suggests Bidri work, which falls nicely in place with the Hydrabad associations as the region known for this dramatic gold with blackened background is geographically close. Thank you for the observation on the ricasso 'block' which well explains the feature and possible refitting of an older blade. After some thought and in looking at this hilt form, it is indeed of Persian form and recalls similarly formed solid hilts of the Deccan from 17th century and later, but which usually have flueret style quillon terminals and often knuckleguards. In the southern India preference, these are often however in brass. With the strong diplomatic and cultural ties between northwest Indian regions and Deccani, the diffusion of many weapons and their features are often seen . In particular I recall a shamshir hilted tulwar which had a solid steel hilt in loosely this form but quite plain, knuckleguard and with the typically seen tulwar style langet and Ottoman influenced quillon terminals, again as on most tulwars of Indo-Persian hilt with disc pommel. What was fascinating was that it was mounted with what was distinctly a British M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and with koftgari decorative panel at the forte. This brings to mind once again the hybridization of these arms between India and Georgian Great Britain, and the importance of both diplomatic and award swords often presented at Royal durbars. Returning to the potential Urdu in the cartouche, though this language was primarily associated with the northwest in India, it was also present in the courts of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan in the Deccan. The heron or crane images in the motif remain a puzzle, but it is known that Mughal favor of botanicals and varying animals and birds in motif is very much part of their decorative art in their material culture. These kinds of allegorical and symbolic depictions are typical in Sh'ia artistic context, such as the Simorgh on many blades . Absolutely magnificent sabre!! and hopefully more ideas will come in. I think your observations regarding Napoleonic influences are well placed. The French were prominently placed in advisory situations in Deccani courts in those times, and it is reciprocally interesting to see the sabres for French officers in 'oriental' style as well.

18th December 2013, 12:30 PM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Charles, Can you post a bigger/better picture of the cartouche?

20th December 2013, 01:55 PM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	the inscription reminds me of ones found on modern indian tourist items. This not to suggest that the piece is fake, not at all... but the inscription might be added recently and with the top inscription not meaning anything.