18th Century Machete ?

M ELEY · 27th November 2013, 03:05 AM

I am aware of the machete pattern existing in the period of which we speak (first half 19th century, GR III/IV and VR period) as seen in Brinckherhoff's book, but none with British markings. Could these be from cut-down sword blades? The profile and beefy tip on them reminds me of exported GR examples that we've come across on the forum over the years, noteworthy being a British blade mounted on a Brazilian cutlass in the past. England (and Germany, of course) were exporting blades to the Americas, and in particular, the Spanish colonies. Thus, a Georgian blade on a traditional Spanish-style machete sword seems reasonable-

thinreadline · 27th November 2013, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I am aware of the machete pattern existing in the period of which we speak (first half 19th century, GR III/IV and VR period) as seen in Brinckherhoff's book, but none with British markings. Could these be from cut-down sword blades? The profile and beefy tip on them reminds me of exported GR examples that we've come across on the forum over the years, noteworthy being a British blade mounted on a Brazilian cutlass in the past. England (and Germany, of course) were exporting blades to the Americas, and in particular, the Spanish colonies. Thus, a Georgian blade on a traditional Spanish-style machete sword seems reasonable-

Yes I would agree with much of your thesis , and I have attached a picture of the 'Georgian' machete , alongside a brass hilted sidearm which came from a maritime collection in Liverpool . This sidearm purports to be an early 19th C British cutlass as used by merchant ships . What struck me is the similarity in blade form to the cutlass - particularly the single fuller close to the pipe back. I can well imagine that this illustrates your point of a British made sword blade recycled as a rehilted machete at a later date. Unfortunately the sidearm id too pitted to discern any markings.
However by contrast I illustrate the 'Georgian' machete alongside a Victorian marked machete . This is clearly a purpose made machete style blade and certainly bears no relationship to any British sword . So from this it must be taken that machetes were a Government issue item at least from the Victorian period .

CutlassCollector · 27th November 2013, 12:35 PM

Further to Norman's reply. This is a page from Schnitzler & Kirschbaum's catalogue of c.1850 which I copy from Boarders Away.

Note the 1700's style cutlass at the top and the 1804 pattern underneath it - makes you wonder, when we have reproductions themselves over 150 years old - also the use of cabalistic symbols on many blades.
Solingen cutlers had no qualms about including these ancient markings or the GR symbol to indicate a quality blade to the export market. I'm not sure what the numbers signify - possibly model numbers - although there are two marked 25 which are significantly different.

Regards, CC.

thinreadline · 27th November 2013, 03:17 PM

Yes that's extremely interesting , and does appear to solve the case convincingly. Much appreciated .

CutlassCollector · 27th November 2013, 06:25 PM

I did wonder if the 24 indicated a 24 inch blade as the two 25's appear about an inch longer. Did your 65cm refer to the total length or only the blade?
A long shot, I know, but it seems worth the trouble to ask if your blade is 22 inches.
CC

thinreadline · 27th November 2013, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

I did wonder if the 24 indicated a 24 inch blade as the two 25's appear about an inch longer. Did your 65cm refer to the total length or only the blade?
A long shot, I know, but it seems worth the trouble to ask if your blade is 22 inches.
CC

No that's a good hunch , however measuring it across the curve ( ie in a straight line ) it is 20.5 inches. Pity !

M ELEY · 29th November 2013, 10:11 PM

I had forgotten about Kirshbaum's swords and their spurious 'GR' markings! Yes, it would seem that the mystery is solved. Throughout the 19th century, Germany (or the Hapsburg Republic, pre-Germany) was importing swords to the Spanish colonies. I used to own a Span late-18th c. broadsword with a finely marked German blade. The makers of that piece, whom I had researched, had stationed themselves in Columbia and were active merchants to the colonies. Likewise, in my collection I have a German-made 'private purchase' cutlass, pipe-back broad unstopped fuller like yours, with 'VR' marking. It wasn't govm't issue, but it very well might have served on an English ship.

27th November 2013, 12:35 PM	#3
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 357	Further to Norman's reply. This is a page from Schnitzler & Kirschbaum's catalogue of c.1850 which I copy from Boarders Away. Note the 1700's style cutlass at the top and the 1804 pattern underneath it - makes you wonder, when we have reproductions themselves over 150 years old - also the use of cabalistic symbols on many blades. Solingen cutlers had no qualms about including these ancient markings or the GR symbol to indicate a quality blade to the export market. I'm not sure what the numbers signify - possibly model numbers - although there are two marked 25 which are significantly different. Regards, CC. Attached Images

27th November 2013, 03:05 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,165	I am aware of the machete pattern existing in the period of which we speak (first half 19th century, GR III/IV and VR period) as seen in Brinckherhoff's book, but none with British markings. Could these be from cut-down sword blades? The profile and beefy tip on them reminds me of exported GR examples that we've come across on the forum over the years, noteworthy being a British blade mounted on a Brazilian cutlass in the past. England (and Germany, of course) were exporting blades to the Americas, and in particular, the Spanish colonies. Thus, a Georgian blade on a traditional Spanish-style machete sword seems reasonable-

27th November 2013, 03:17 PM	#4
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Yes that's extremely interesting , and does appear to solve the case convincingly. Much appreciated .

27th November 2013, 06:25 PM	#5
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 357	I did wonder if the 24 indicated a 24 inch blade as the two 25's appear about an inch longer. Did your 65cm refer to the total length or only the blade? A long shot, I know, but it seems worth the trouble to ask if your blade is 22 inches. CC

29th November 2013, 10:11 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,165	I had forgotten about Kirshbaum's swords and their spurious 'GR' markings! Yes, it would seem that the mystery is solved. Throughout the 19th century, Germany (or the Hapsburg Republic, pre-Germany) was importing swords to the Spanish colonies. I used to own a Span late-18th c. broadsword with a finely marked German blade. The makers of that piece, whom I had researched, had stationed themselves in Columbia and were active merchants to the colonies. Likewise, in my collection I have a German-made 'private purchase' cutlass, pipe-back broad unstopped fuller like yours, with 'VR' marking. It wasn't govm't issue, but it very well might have served on an English ship.