Palembang Keris for your comment

tunggulametung · 23rd November 2013, 12:56 AM

Electrolytic rust removal is a good alternative to remove rust while preserving good metal. On the negative side rust spots will turn into pitting, this will be pronounced on the horn hilted keris

Please experiment with some scrap metal to see if you like it/you haven't done it before if you decide to go this route.

I think light etching with your preferred acid and not stained such as Jean's example is more appropriate for both blades, but this might be personal preference, some blades look better with contrasting pamor, some don't. I have good result with phosphoric acid for light keris etching and also preparing my other restoration projects prior priming it with zinc chromate/iron oxide (I'm a rust hater).

Wax is a good alternative to oil and demand less maintenance.
As the rust is old/stable, it doesn't have to be removed if owner can live with it, this is the safest alternative of all.

I'd like to hear other members opinion on the origin of the horn hilted blade. It has no pamor as far as I can tell. Is it attributed to Palembang as well?

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2013, 01:51 AM

Yes, you could be right about the electronic rust removal TA, I've never tried it, so I don't really know, but it sounds as if its potential is very good.

As to whether rust should be removed or not, I cannot understand why this should be in question. It doesn't depend on one's personal preference for visual effect, it depends on whether one wishes to assume responsibility for the ongoing maintenance of the keris, or not. If yes, there is no option but to remove the rust. Rust that appears to be stable can easily be reactivated and a blade with stable rust requires a higher degree of awareness. A keris should not have any rust, not only because of the need for maintenance, but because of its status as a cultural icon and the obligations attached to that status.

I agree that wax is perhaps preferable to oil for a blade with a smooth finish. For modern custom knives I would always opt for wax, but for most blades from SE Asia, where the surface often has a high degree of topographic relief, weld imperfections, erosion, & etc, I don't really think that wax is a viable option.

The horn hilted blade bears many features that would permit it to be classified as Surakarta, however, it is impossible to give it this classification from a photograph, bearing in mind the long term association of Palembang with Central Jawa, it is more likely that this keris is a Palembang copy of a Surakarta keris.

jwkiernan · 23rd November 2013, 04:24 AM

...Great to see all the comments guys! I am learning more and more all the time...so much to learn!

Jean, as far as I can see the horn hilted keris has no pamor at all...seems to be mono steel (or skin over a core)...very uniform all the way around. The black/stable-now rust really bothers me on this piece but I want to take the less evasive route possible as I have not done this before (and I am guessing this blade is at least 19th century). I have others in my collection that you can tell were stained at one time...this one doesn't ever appear to have been stained...I could very well be wrong. BTW Jean, beautiful keris!

I have one pictured in the other post with a monkey hilt...that piece has a beautiful pamor...I can see the reason for staining that one and others like it.

I guess to me the most important thing is to make sure the blade is stable, wood has the proper moisture and they are cared for as I can tell they hadn't been cared for in a while...they sure get attention now!

I am sue I, like most everyone else on the forums main objective is preserving the pieces for future appreciation...as a retired military guy I see these as weapons that defended person, family and country. They had/have an important part of their history, religion and culture...I just love them!

Again, thank you guys...keep it up...I love it...more keris to come! Have a great and safe weekend all!

Respectfully,

John

Jean · 23rd November 2013, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Electrolytic rust removal is a good alternative to remove rust while preserving good metal. On the negative side rust spots will turn into pitting, this will be pronounced on the horn hilted keris

Please experiment with some scrap metal to see if you like it/you haven't done it before if you decide to go this route.

Hello Chandra,
If you experiment the electrolytic rust removal method, please give us some clues about the solution used, source of DC power and voltage, approximate treatment time, etc
Rust spots will turn to pits anyway as the rust eats away the bare metal.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2013, 11:07 AM

Thanks Jean. Yes, I thought it had been done that way.

Jean, the soak method of warangan is what is used for cheap commercial jobs. You can do a lot of blades for a low cost.

To get a truly good warangan job you need to use the massage method, where you brush the fluid on, then pinch and massage the blade with your bare hands. Not many people know how to do this properly, and even less are willing to do it, but the big benefit is that you can even out variation in the stain colour, and the stain itself will last virtually forever.

sirek · 23rd November 2013, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Chandra,
If you experiment the electrolytic rust removal method, please give us some clues about the solution used, source of DC power and voltage, approximate treatment time, etc
Rust spots will turn to pits anyway as the rust eats away the bare metal.
Best regards
Jean

Hello Jean,
If pineapple juice does not work because the rust is too thick ,I move on to electrolytic derusting using:
- any battery charger in the 4 amp to 20 amp range will work. (The lower the current, the longer it will take to get the job done)
Connect the Negative lead to the part that you want derusted!!!
-for the solution: About a tablespoon of household / washing soda to a gallon of water. (Fine bubbles will rise from the object when cleaning is in progress)
-after some hours scrub with Scotch Brite , rust scale is loosened and can be easily removed. Un-rusted metal is not affected in any way.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...cleaning+blade

jwkiernan · 23rd November 2013, 05:33 PM

Detlef, thanks for posting the pictures...very nice keris indeed! The hilts are very similar indeed! Again thank you for the look! Have a great weekend (to all)!

All my best,

John

Jean · 23rd November 2013, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirek

Hello Jean,
If pineapple juice does not work because the rust is too thick ,I move on to electrolytic derusting using:
- any battery charger in the 4 amp to 20 amp range will work. (The lower the current, the longer it will take to get the job done)
Connect the Negative lead to the part that you want derusted!!!
-for the solution: About a tablespoon of household / washing soda to a gallon of water. (Fine bubbles will rise from the object when cleaning is in progress)
-after some hours scrub with Scotch Brite , rust scale is loosened and can be easily removed. Un-rusted metal is not affected in any way.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...cleaning+blade

Hello Sirek,
Thank you very much, I forgot this thread and will try it!

tunggulametung · 24th November 2013, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As to whether rust should be removed or not, I cannot understand why this should be in question. It doesn't depend on one's personal preference for visual effect, it depends on whether one wishes to assume responsibility for the ongoing maintenance of the keris, or not. If yes, there is no option but to remove the rust. Rust that appears to be stable can easily be reactivated and a blade with stable rust requires a higher degree of awareness. A keris should not have any rust, not only because of the need for maintenance, but because of its status as a cultural icon and the obligations attached to that status.

As a general rule, yes, I'm agree with your statement. A keris shouldn't be left rusted in the first place. But honestly, for me, there are time when a blade is better to leave with some old rust in it than loosing its original geometry/details, i.e. loosing jenggot/greneng or corroded edges. In that case I would use mechanical/abrasive method to push the rusted spot flat. Perhaps blade geometry is very important to me as how pamor or tangguh important to others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I agree that wax is perhaps preferable to oil for a blade with a smooth finish. For modern custom knives I would always opt for wax, but for most blades from SE Asia, where the surface often has a high degree of topographic relief, weld imperfections, erosion, & etc, I don't really think that wax is a viable option.

Alan we are not speaking about Grinling Gibbons carvings. In that case I would use different brush to apply and buff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The horn hilted blade bears many features that would permit it to be classified as Surakarta, however, it is impossible to give it this classification from a photograph, bearing in mind the long term association of Palembang with Central Jawa, it is more likely that this keris is a Palembang copy of a Surakarta keris.

Thank you for your opinion. The geometry reminds of a classical Javanese blade indeed as if when it come with pamor I would think it is a Javanese trade blade. It would be interesting to hear if other members have different view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirek

Hello Jean,
If pineapple juice does not work because the rust is too thick ,I move on to electrolytic derusting using:
- any battery charger in the 4 amp to 20 amp range will work. (The lower the current, the longer it will take to get the job done)
Connect the Negative lead to the part that you want derusted!!!
-for the solution: About a tablespoon of household / washing soda to a gallon of water. (Fine bubbles will rise from the object when cleaning is in progress)
-after some hours scrub with Scotch Brite , rust scale is loosened and can be easily removed. Un-rusted metal is not affected in any way.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...cleaning+blade

Thank you Sirek.

Haven't done that for a while Jean, but I post example on this thread
I may add that less water (I use hot water to start with) and more sacrificial metal surrounding the object being clean seems to speed up the process as well.

The left over carbon on tiny crevices can be clean easily with soft wire brush or with acid if required to minimize the acid corroding good metal (as in acid soaking).

On a ganja iras blade it is perfectly safe, but on regular blade especially one with a bad fit/corroded pesi/omah-omahan pesi, the risk of splitting joint is present, but I can't confirm this could happen.

A. G. Maisey · 24th November 2013, 10:07 AM

TA, when I state an opinion, it is usually an opinion that has been formed by what I have been taught.

One of the things I have been taught about the keris is that we often do not have the luxury of a personal opinion if we wish to observe the traditions of respect that are attached to the keris.

Because of my training and my background I often feel that I am obliged to act in a particular way, and in fact my principal teacher drummed this obligation into me time and time again. Essentially my obligation is this:- I have the obligation to return to as good condition as possible any keris that comes into my hands.

No keris is in as good condition as possible if it is allowed to remain rusted.

However, what I have just recounted is only my position. I have this obligation, but many other people do not, so if you, or anybody else feels that a keris is happier being rusted and dirty, that is of course your prerogative.

I'm sorry TA, but your reference to Grinling Gibbons escapes me. I thought he was a wood carver? Did he work in ferric material as well?

Gustav · 24th November 2013, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Thank you for your opinion. The geometry reminds of a classical Javanese blade indeed as if when it come with pamor I would think it is a Javanese trade blade. It would be interesting to hear if other members have different view.

Pamor isn't the crucial matter here, even with pamor it would be a Palembang blade.

A. G. Maisey · 24th November 2013, 08:01 PM

Yes Gustav, you're right, the pivot point is not whether it has pamor or not, but I think what TA might mean is that stylistically this a Javanese blade, probably Surakarta or maybe Banten, and that if it did have pamor it could influence him to think that in fact it came from Jawa, but because it does not have pamor it influences him more towards a Palembang origin.

In fact, from a photo I wouldn't be prepared to give any definite opinion, photos only ever convey a very limited amount of information, doesn't matter how good they are.

Gustav · 24th November 2013, 08:50 PM

Regarding Central Javanese inspired Palembang blades, it is very interesting for me to notice, there seem to be no switch to "internal" greneng till the end of Keris production there, the greneng stays external like on older Javanese or Bali blades.

Also interesting, there are Palembang blades of nearly the same age with both squarish and Solo style Blumbangan.

Here is a link to detail pictures of a good Javanese inspired Palembang blade (please scroll down, yet also the whole thread is very recommended)

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../000307-2.html

23rd November 2013, 12:56 AM	#1
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Electrolytic rust removal is a good alternative to remove rust while preserving good metal. On the negative side rust spots will turn into pitting, this will be pronounced on the horn hilted keris Please experiment with some scrap metal to see if you like it/you haven't done it before if you decide to go this route. I think light etching with your preferred acid and not stained such as Jean's example is more appropriate for both blades, but this might be personal preference, some blades look better with contrasting pamor, some don't. I have good result with phosphoric acid for light keris etching and also preparing my other restoration projects prior priming it with zinc chromate/iron oxide (I'm a rust hater). Wax is a good alternative to oil and demand less maintenance. As the rust is old/stable, it doesn't have to be removed if owner can live with it, this is the safest alternative of all. I'd like to hear other members opinion on the origin of the horn hilted blade. It has no pamor as far as I can tell. Is it attributed to Palembang as well?

23rd November 2013, 01:51 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, you could be right about the electronic rust removal TA, I've never tried it, so I don't really know, but it sounds as if its potential is very good. As to whether rust should be removed or not, I cannot understand why this should be in question. It doesn't depend on one's personal preference for visual effect, it depends on whether one wishes to assume responsibility for the ongoing maintenance of the keris, or not. If yes, there is no option but to remove the rust. Rust that appears to be stable can easily be reactivated and a blade with stable rust requires a higher degree of awareness. A keris should not have any rust, not only because of the need for maintenance, but because of its status as a cultural icon and the obligations attached to that status. I agree that wax is perhaps preferable to oil for a blade with a smooth finish. For modern custom knives I would always opt for wax, but for most blades from SE Asia, where the surface often has a high degree of topographic relief, weld imperfections, erosion, & etc, I don't really think that wax is a viable option. The horn hilted blade bears many features that would permit it to be classified as Surakarta, however, it is impossible to give it this classification from a photograph, bearing in mind the long term association of Palembang with Central Jawa, it is more likely that this keris is a Palembang copy of a Surakarta keris.

23rd November 2013, 04:24 AM	#3
jwkiernan Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 37	...Great to see all the comments guys! I am learning more and more all the time...so much to learn! Jean, as far as I can see the horn hilted keris has no pamor at all...seems to be mono steel (or skin over a core)...very uniform all the way around. The black/stable-now rust really bothers me on this piece but I want to take the less evasive route possible as I have not done this before (and I am guessing this blade is at least 19th century). I have others in my collection that you can tell were stained at one time...this one doesn't ever appear to have been stained...I could very well be wrong. BTW Jean, beautiful keris! I have one pictured in the other post with a monkey hilt...that piece has a beautiful pamor...I can see the reason for staining that one and others like it. I guess to me the most important thing is to make sure the blade is stable, wood has the proper moisture and they are cared for as I can tell they hadn't been cared for in a while...they sure get attention now! I am sue I, like most everyone else on the forums main objective is preserving the pieces for future appreciation...as a retired military guy I see these as weapons that defended person, family and country. They had/have an important part of their history, religion and culture...I just love them! Again, thank you guys...keep it up...I love it...more keris to come! Have a great and safe weekend all! Respectfully, John

23rd November 2013, 11:07 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks Jean. Yes, I thought it had been done that way. Jean, the soak method of warangan is what is used for cheap commercial jobs. You can do a lot of blades for a low cost. To get a truly good warangan job you need to use the massage method, where you brush the fluid on, then pinch and massage the blade with your bare hands. Not many people know how to do this properly, and even less are willing to do it, but the big benefit is that you can even out variation in the stain colour, and the stain itself will last virtually forever.

23rd November 2013, 05:33 PM	#7
jwkiernan Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 37	Detlef, thanks for posting the pictures...very nice keris indeed! The hilts are very similar indeed! Again thank you for the look! Have a great weekend (to all)! All my best, John

24th November 2013, 10:07 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	TA, when I state an opinion, it is usually an opinion that has been formed by what I have been taught. One of the things I have been taught about the keris is that we often do not have the luxury of a personal opinion if we wish to observe the traditions of respect that are attached to the keris. Because of my training and my background I often feel that I am obliged to act in a particular way, and in fact my principal teacher drummed this obligation into me time and time again. Essentially my obligation is this:- I have the obligation to return to as good condition as possible any keris that comes into my hands. No keris is in as good condition as possible if it is allowed to remain rusted. However, what I have just recounted is only my position. I have this obligation, but many other people do not, so if you, or anybody else feels that a keris is happier being rusted and dirty, that is of course your prerogative. I'm sorry TA, but your reference to Grinling Gibbons escapes me. I thought he was a wood carver? Did he work in ferric material as well?

24th November 2013, 08:01 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Gustav, you're right, the pivot point is not whether it has pamor or not, but I think what TA might mean is that stylistically this a Javanese blade, probably Surakarta or maybe Banten, and that if it did have pamor it could influence him to think that in fact it came from Jawa, but because it does not have pamor it influences him more towards a Palembang origin. In fact, from a photo I wouldn't be prepared to give any definite opinion, photos only ever convey a very limited amount of information, doesn't matter how good they are.

24th November 2013, 08:50 PM	#13
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Regarding Central Javanese inspired Palembang blades, it is very interesting for me to notice, there seem to be no switch to "internal" greneng till the end of Keris production there, the greneng stays external like on older Javanese or Bali blades. Also interesting, there are Palembang blades of nearly the same age with both squarish and Solo style Blumbangan. Here is a link to detail pictures of a good Javanese inspired Palembang blade (please scroll down, yet also the whole thread is very recommended) http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../000307-2.html