New Member, New Keris

Sajen · 19th November 2013, 06:47 PM

Thank you Alan.

Hello Peter,

two other observations. First, by your later and much better pictures you can see that the blade isn't original to this scabbard. The "mouth" was made smaller with help from some sort of filler.
Second, the mendak isn't a Yogya one.
I really doubt that a keris like this coming from an abdi dalam. He will fit his keris with an adequate mendak and when the scabbard of his keris is broken he will let made a new one for the blade and don't let refit an old one.

Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia).

Sorry to speak open words to you and I hope you haven't pay to much for this keris. You have a nice and somewhat rare sheath form, a very nice mendak and so far I can see a nice hilt. The weakest part of this ensemble is indeed the blade.

Don't worry, we all have learned the hard way.

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2013, 09:52 PM

Detlef, I am more than prepared to accept that this keris originated with an abdi dalem.

I do not know the Ngayogyakarta situation, but I do know the Surakarta situation very well.

The people who occupy the position of adbi dalem in the karaton are a mix of people who are representative of the wider community. The work they do in the karaton is voluntary, and even when they rise to a high level in the hierarchy of the karaton the stipend that they receive is miniscule. Essentially, these are people who have strong traditional ties and commitments and who want to support the karaton and the continuation of Javanese tradition. In my experience, most of these people are most definitely not wealthy in the slightest degree.

In Solo there are always a number of abdi dalem, some of whom do have royal blood or impressive titles, who are amateur keris dealers. I can guarantee you that a visitor to the Karaton Surakarta who wants to buy a genuine old Majapahit era keris that has royal provenance will have not the slightest difficulty in acquiring one. All he needs to do is to let it be known. The seller will get hold of some degraded old keris from the alun-alun, or Pasar Triwindu, and present it with a story, and the deal is done. The keris will have come from the royal armory, or from some notable person, a certificate of authenticity will be arranged from some other abdi dalem at an inflated price.

Alternatively the keris might form a part of a multiple swapsi-changey deal where the seller has the opportunity to sell two or three items that progress in a chain resulting in eventual sale of the keris.

The Javanese people have had a very long time to develop the skills of manipulation for monetary reward. A thousand years ago they needed to manipulate their rulers in order to survive and prosper. Then the Dutch came along and they honed their skills on them. Then international tourism resulted in a flood of millionaires with their pockets full of money --- don't forget, we're all millionaires in the perception of people who have to live on less than $100 a month.

Probably the best way for a visitor to Jawa to look at a deal with a local is that he has made a contribution to the upkeep of a family for a few weeks or months. Its in the nature of a charitable donation.

But if the visitor is not willing to make a charitable donation, it is best that as a minimum he learn Bahasa Indonesia, and do some very serious study of the culture and society of Jawa before he visits.

Sajen · 20th November 2013, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, I am more than prepared to accept that this keris originated with an abdi dalem.

I do not know the Ngayogyakarta situation, but I do know the Surakarta situation very well. ..........

So could this part of the story Peter was told true.

Alan, I really like your explanations like this. It is like a film for my imagination.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2013, 09:03 PM

Thanks for your compliment Detlef.

Yes, I'm quite prepared to accept the possibility that there was an abdi dalem somewhere in the deal. Most of these stories have a grain or two of truth in them.

shadejoy · 21st November 2013, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Alan.

Hello Peter,

two other observations. First, by your later and much better pictures you can see that the blade isn't original to this scabbard. The "mouth" was made smaller with help from some sort of filler.
Second, the mendak isn't a Yogya one.
I really doubt that a keris like this coming from an abdi dalam. He will fit his keris with an adequate mendak and when the scabbard of his keris is broken he will let made a new one for the blade and don't let refit an old one.

Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia).

Sorry to speak open words to you and I hope you haven't pay to much for this keris. You have a nice and somewhat rare sheath form, a very nice mendak and so far I can see a nice hilt. The weakest part of this ensemble is indeed the blade.

Don't worry, we all have learned the hard way.

Best regards,

Detlef

No no, you have all of my gratitude.

The Keris is without a doubt very old, as I mentioned earlier, to me the blade is real thin and fragile. The only way to make certain of things is really by getting your hand on it. I spent about $300 on this Keris and to tell you the truth, I'm not that upset. This Keris is one of the first set of collections that I have. As Alan said, education does not come cheap

And I try to be grateful of what I have.

My contact has very good relationship to a couple of Surakartan Abdi Dalems and a Yogyakartan ..or so he claimed. And he seems to be pretty vocal in the Keris world. He mentioned that he'd receive an honorary title (KRT) from the Sultan sometime next year.

Alan, that is some intricate way of doing business

But I can imagine that in the third world country.

Sajen · 21st November 2013, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadejoy

No no, you have all of my gratitude.

The Keris is without a doubt very old, as I mentioned earlier, to me the blade is real thin and fragile. The only way to make certain of things is really by getting your hand on it. I spent about $300 on this Keris and to tell you the truth, I'm not that upset. This Keris is one of the first set of collections that I have. As Alan said, education does not come cheap

And I try to be grateful of what I have.

Hello Peter,

yes, this blade has without doubt age. And I belive you that the blade is thin now. Good that you haven't pay to much.

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 21st November 2013, 08:12 PM

Peter, what I have outlined is quite straightforward from a Javanese point of view.

When one engages in any sort of transaction with a Javanese person one can rely on the fact that nothing will be as it might seem to be, and that nothing will be presented directly and openly, but rather it will be introduced at an angle, very often from behind and unexpectedly.

This is a general rule that applies in all transactions. To act in any other way is not the social norm. Gratuitous truth is avoided at all costs. Never, ever tell the truth if it can be avoided.

An example:-

Pak Wanda meets his next door neighbour walking along the road towards town.

"Good morning! What news?"
"Good Morning. I'm OK. Yourself?"
"I'm OK. Where are you going?"
"To the post office."
"OK, take it easy. See you later"

In fact Pak Wanda's neighbour was off to the market to buy some manggis.

Very uncool to be open, honest, and tell the truth.

This social norm comes across into all dealings with Javanese people, especially business dealings.

The general impression that a Javanese person seeks to create, most especially with any outsider is one of refined, non-committed warmth. They smile, they are complimentary, they are gentle and helpful. It is only when one is accepted as a part of a Javanese family and community that one comes to understand the true Javanese nature, which can be bad tempered, volatile and highly emotional. In fact, just like ordinary people anywhere, but it is very uncool to let the world see who you really are. You keep your true emotions hidden.

If one wishes to do business in Jawa, or get involved in any other way with Jawa, it is a very good idea to either spend an extended period of time in Jawa before spending any money or investing any emotion, or perhaps do a degree majoring in Javanese sociology.

tunggulametung · 23rd November 2013, 01:16 AM

I'm not specifically speaking about the keris under discussion, or Detlef's example, but Javanese tanggalan sheath is often made from repurposed ladrang sheath, just as nguku bimo on telale gajah. In fact, I personally think this is the origin of the design. The Sumatran/Malay example is another.

Jean · 23rd November 2013, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

I'm not specifically speaking about the keris under discussion, or Detlef's example, but Javanese tanggalan sheath is often made from repurposed ladrang sheath, just as nguku bimo on telale gajah. In fact, I personally think this is the origin of the design. The Sumatran/Malay example is another.

Hello Chandra,
This is an interesting opinion, however looking at my specimen and one typical warangka branggah from Yogya, I find it difficult that the tanggalan warangka could be reshaped from a branggah one for several reasons:
. The front part of the tanggalan warangka is more protruding and rounded than the branggah
. The tanggalan warangka is more curved on the top than the branggah
. The groove on the front side is different
. The rear part of the branggah is slimmer and flat at the bottom and it looks difficult to re-sape it to a tanggalan.

What do you mean by Sumatra/ Malay example?
Thanks and regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2013, 08:16 PM

Jean, forgive me, but TA said that in his opinion the origin of the design was from reshaping a ladrang, not that all tanggalan were from ladrang.

In fact damaged ladrangs were the origin of a second type of wrongko also, the Madura/East Jawa kacir, but as with the tanggalan the kacir became a form in its own right.

Actually, I have a bit of a problem with this name:- "tanggalan".

I'd never heard this name used until I saw people on this Forum using it, then I found it in Ensiklopedi,published in 2004. It was not in the first edition (Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional) published in 1988.

Through the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's everybody I knew in Solo called this wrongko form "wulan tumanggal", and they probably still do today, although its been a while since I've used or heard the name there.

The word "tanggalan" means "calendar". So this is a "calendar wrongko" ??

On the other hand, "wulan tumanggal" means "new moon", a name which to me seems very appropriate and perfectly understandable.

"Calendar wrongko" ?????

tunggulametung · 23rd November 2013, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

............

Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia).
.........................

Thank you Detlef

I may add that when the seller knows your quality he normally won't tell these stories and let you judge the object. So the moral is to educate yourself and be confident with it.

Sajen · 23rd November 2013, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Thank you Detlef

I may add that when the seller knows your quality he normally won't tell these stories and let you judge the object. So the moral is to educate yourself and be confident with it.

Hi Chandra,

I think you know exacly what I have meant! I have bought the a lot of my keris in Indonesia and I have had my education as well. And I have had a very good teatcher. And there are also very serious seller in Indonesia like you or some other ebay sellers. Sorry, never want offend you or other persons I have bought before from.

Best regards,

Detlef

19th November 2013, 06:47 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,272	Thank you Alan. Hello Peter, two other observations. First, by your later and much better pictures you can see that the blade isn't original to this scabbard. The "mouth" was made smaller with help from some sort of filler. Second, the mendak isn't a Yogya one. I really doubt that a keris like this coming from an abdi dalam. He will fit his keris with an adequate mendak and when the scabbard of his keris is broken he will let made a new one for the blade and don't let refit an old one. Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia). Sorry to speak open words to you and I hope you haven't pay to much for this keris. You have a nice and somewhat rare sheath form, a very nice mendak and so far I can see a nice hilt. The weakest part of this ensemble is indeed the blade. Don't worry, we all have learned the hard way. Best regards, Detlef

19th November 2013, 09:52 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Detlef, I am more than prepared to accept that this keris originated with an abdi dalem. I do not know the Ngayogyakarta situation, but I do know the Surakarta situation very well. The people who occupy the position of adbi dalem in the karaton are a mix of people who are representative of the wider community. The work they do in the karaton is voluntary, and even when they rise to a high level in the hierarchy of the karaton the stipend that they receive is miniscule. Essentially, these are people who have strong traditional ties and commitments and who want to support the karaton and the continuation of Javanese tradition. In my experience, most of these people are most definitely not wealthy in the slightest degree. In Solo there are always a number of abdi dalem, some of whom do have royal blood or impressive titles, who are amateur keris dealers. I can guarantee you that a visitor to the Karaton Surakarta who wants to buy a genuine old Majapahit era keris that has royal provenance will have not the slightest difficulty in acquiring one. All he needs to do is to let it be known. The seller will get hold of some degraded old keris from the alun-alun, or Pasar Triwindu, and present it with a story, and the deal is done. The keris will have come from the royal armory, or from some notable person, a certificate of authenticity will be arranged from some other abdi dalem at an inflated price. Alternatively the keris might form a part of a multiple swapsi-changey deal where the seller has the opportunity to sell two or three items that progress in a chain resulting in eventual sale of the keris. The Javanese people have had a very long time to develop the skills of manipulation for monetary reward. A thousand years ago they needed to manipulate their rulers in order to survive and prosper. Then the Dutch came along and they honed their skills on them. Then international tourism resulted in a flood of millionaires with their pockets full of money --- don't forget, we're all millionaires in the perception of people who have to live on less than $100 a month. Probably the best way for a visitor to Jawa to look at a deal with a local is that he has made a contribution to the upkeep of a family for a few weeks or months. Its in the nature of a charitable donation. But if the visitor is not willing to make a charitable donation, it is best that as a minimum he learn Bahasa Indonesia, and do some very serious study of the culture and society of Jawa before he visits.

20th November 2013, 09:03 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thanks for your compliment Detlef. Yes, I'm quite prepared to accept the possibility that there was an abdi dalem somewhere in the deal. Most of these stories have a grain or two of truth in them.

21st November 2013, 08:12 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Peter, what I have outlined is quite straightforward from a Javanese point of view. When one engages in any sort of transaction with a Javanese person one can rely on the fact that nothing will be as it might seem to be, and that nothing will be presented directly and openly, but rather it will be introduced at an angle, very often from behind and unexpectedly. This is a general rule that applies in all transactions. To act in any other way is not the social norm. Gratuitous truth is avoided at all costs. Never, ever tell the truth if it can be avoided. An example:- Pak Wanda meets his next door neighbour walking along the road towards town. "Good morning! What news?" "Good Morning. I'm OK. Yourself?" "I'm OK. Where are you going?" "To the post office." "OK, take it easy. See you later" In fact Pak Wanda's neighbour was off to the market to buy some manggis. Very uncool to be open, honest, and tell the truth. This social norm comes across into all dealings with Javanese people, especially business dealings. The general impression that a Javanese person seeks to create, most especially with any outsider is one of refined, non-committed warmth. They smile, they are complimentary, they are gentle and helpful. It is only when one is accepted as a part of a Javanese family and community that one comes to understand the true Javanese nature, which can be bad tempered, volatile and highly emotional. In fact, just like ordinary people anywhere, but it is very uncool to let the world see who you really are. You keep your true emotions hidden. If one wishes to do business in Jawa, or get involved in any other way with Jawa, it is a very good idea to either spend an extended period of time in Jawa before spending any money or investing any emotion, or perhaps do a degree majoring in Javanese sociology.

23rd November 2013, 01:16 AM	#8
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	I'm not specifically speaking about the keris under discussion, or Detlef's example, but Javanese tanggalan sheath is often made from repurposed ladrang sheath, just as nguku bimo on telale gajah. In fact, I personally think this is the origin of the design. The Sumatran/Malay example is another.

23rd November 2013, 08:16 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Jean, forgive me, but TA said that in his opinion the origin of the design was from reshaping a ladrang, not that all tanggalan were from ladrang. In fact damaged ladrangs were the origin of a second type of wrongko also, the Madura/East Jawa kacir, but as with the tanggalan the kacir became a form in its own right. Actually, I have a bit of a problem with this name:- "tanggalan". I'd never heard this name used until I saw people on this Forum using it, then I found it in Ensiklopedi,published in 2004. It was not in the first edition (Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional) published in 1988. Through the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's everybody I knew in Solo called this wrongko form "wulan tumanggal", and they probably still do today, although its been a while since I've used or heard the name there. The word "tanggalan" means "calendar". So this is a "calendar wrongko" ?? On the other hand, "wulan tumanggal" means "new moon", a name which to me seems very appropriate and perfectly understandable. "Calendar wrongko" ?????