large Keris

David · 15th October 2013, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

My personal opinion:
clean the blade and, if possible, etch it. A real pamor may appear.
Throw away hilt and scabbard. You will easily find a better hilt, but not a scabbard, also due to the size of the blade.
The mendak (better "UWER" - thanks for correcting me, Jean) is good.

GIO, while you are most certainly welcome to your personal opinion you may want to consider putting this into Brian's perspective. He is a general collector of weapons who only very casually collects the occassinal keris. He paid very little for this particular example. I doubt he is looking to spend much more to create an "ideal" example of a Bali keris. Given the quality of the blade itself it also wouldn't make sense even to me as someone who specializes in the collection of keris to throw much money at redressing such a blade when it has serviceable dress already. Your suggestion that he throw away the hilt and sheath seems a bit extreme to me. Cleaning and restraining the blade certainly seems worth the effort to return some dignity to this keris, but i am in agreement with Alan that even this apparently touristy style of dress has a place in a well rounded collection. This particular one is actually of better carving than most that i see of this type on the market. I am still left unsure of the origins of this particular dress type and don't know if it was ever acceptable for indigenous ethnographic usage, but as VANDOO points out it is a style that has been in existence for at least 50 years. To properly redress this blade would cost hundreds of dollars and Brian seems happy with the look of the ensemble as a display piece so i can't see why he would want to spend more money than he paid for the thing redressing it.

Sajen · 15th October 2013, 08:52 PM

First, I am in absolute agreement with David regarding redressing the blade in question.

While we still discuss this keris I have bought a keris in a similar dress/sarung in a little bit better form and with a good blade IMHO. See here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Kris...vip=true&rt=nc
By this I have the same question like David (who as well own a keris in a similar sarung): Was a keris in such a sarung ever acceptable for Bali people to wear it? Or was it only a way to sell a single blade, equal which quality, to tourists?

David · 15th October 2013, 10:06 PM

I have often seen halfway decent blades fitted into this type of dress. This may well be a way to cheaply sheath a naked blade in order to sell it. I do, however, have a variation on this sheath form which seems to clearly have been made for the blade, not simply refitted. So the question remains...

Iliad · 16th October 2013, 01:13 AM

David,
Thank you for your helpful and encouraging words.
You are correct in describing me as a general collector of weapons. Here in New Zealand I would be described as a "Magpie" collector. A Magpie is a bird which compulsively collects bright and shiny objects and takes them back to the nest. They can't be eaten, so are of no practical use to the bird, so I guess that he just looks at them with bird pleasure!
Could any other forum members be described as "Magpies"?
Best,
Brian

A. G. Maisey · 16th October 2013, 09:29 AM

Regarding use of this style of dress by Balinese people.

This is a non-traditional style of wrongko that does not fit any purpose in Balinese society --- except to sell to foreigners. There is a Balinese style, that is usually associated with a Balinese settlement in Madura, that echoes this scabbard style, it has a metal mask of Boma on its face.

With the early ones that were made, and through to the 1970's, maybe even early 1980's, old blades very often had this style of dress made for them, simply so they could be sold in the souvenir shops. It was not a re-fit job, not a matter of making the scabbard and then fitting a blade, it was a process of:- acquire blade, make dress, sell to tourist.

The uwer on this keris will be found to have plastic "jewels". It looks OK, but the "jewels" will be little bits of plastic.

Sajen · 16th October 2013, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Regarding use of this style of dress by Balinese people.

This is a non-traditional style of wrongko that does not fit any purpose in Balinese society --- except to sell to foreigners. There is a Balinese style, that is usually associated with a Balinese settlement in Madura, that echoes this scabbard style, it has a metal mask of Boma on its face.

With the early ones that were made, and through to the 1970's, maybe even early 1980's, old blades very often had this style of dress made for them, simply so they could be sold in the souvenir shops. It was not a re-fit job, not a matter of making the scabbard and then fitting a blade, it was a process of:- acquire blade, make dress, sell to tourist.

The uwer on this keris will be found to have plastic "jewels". It looks OK, but the "jewels" will be little bits of plastic.

Thank you Alan for clarification! This is what I have thought. And it is also a explanation that the better ( and I think also early ) ones of this scabbards house sometimes relative good blades while the roughly carved ones ( and therefore later ones ) house most of the time the KLO blades with batik pamor. At least is this what I have seen since I have had interest too keris.

A. G. Maisey · 16th October 2013, 09:35 PM

The reason that the early examples of this type of dress used old blades, sometimes of rather acceptable quality, is that way back then keris in Bali were very much undervalued.

In the 1960's and 1970's the value of a keris in Bali was next to nothing.

So, people had old blades hanging around, that had no scabbard or hilt, and thus were unsaleable to the tourists as souvenirs, because the tourists, being mostly westerners, did not understand that the true value of the keris, both monetary and spiritual, was in the blade.

To make these old blades saleable they were given to the carvers in Mas who developed a form of dress that displayed the carvers' skills and which was attractive to the visitors to Bali as a souvenir.

Eventually the real blades ran out. There was now a market for these souvenir keris but no real blades were left to fill the scabbards.

So the Balinese people began to produce keris blades made from flat iron and give this flat iron a false pamor.

The tourists didn't care, they were buying the carving, not the blade.

People go to Bali now and come home with their suitcases full of clothes with prestige labels --- all fake of course, but in the best examples as good as, or maybe even better than the originals. I know two professional women who go to Bali every six months to update their wardrobes.

Factories are set up to produce the famous brands of surf clothes. Factories that the Australian owners then go to Bali and burn down, only to see them in production again in 6 months time. Or sooner.

In Bali, as in Indonesia in general, fake everything floods the market. You really do need to be very, very skilled and knowledgeable to buy any genuine article of any kind from an Indonesian source.

But back in the 1960's, 1970's, and even as late as 1982, it was very different. If you went to Bali for a holiday you always took your old Levi jeans and a couple of second-hand surf towels. A pair of Levi jeans would cover a week's accommodation in a homestay.Including breakfast.Black rice pudding or banana pancakes.

You could exchange the towels for the other comforts of home.

When we consider anything at all to do with keris we need to consider not the keris, but the condition of the society at the relevant time.

This is as true of the recent past as it is of the distant past.

Don't ask your questions in terms of just the keris.

Ask your questions in terms of the society.

Jean · 16th October 2013, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Cleaning and restaining the blade certainly seems worth the effort to return some dignity to this keris, but i am in agreement with Alan that even this apparently touristy style of dress has a place in a well rounded collection. This particular one is actually of better carving than most that i see of this type on the market. I am still left unsure of the origins of this particular dress type and don't know if it was ever acceptable for indigenous ethnographic usage, but as VANDOO points out it is a style that has been in existence for at least 50 years.

Just for reference, this is what Mr David Van Duuren thinks about this style of scabbard.

Regards

Henk · 16th October 2013, 11:15 AM

A lot of opinions here. I also agree completely with David. I would keep this keris as it is. If possible a proper stain of the blade to get the real pamor out otherwise i would leave it as it is.

When i was a youngster and put my first steps on collecting, i used to visit my neighbours of indonesian origin. They had such a keris on the wall. It was more in the style of the keris Detleff showed us. But i still remember that the backside of the scabbard was carved as well. I had the honor to handle this keris a few times. Probably because of my admiration of this keris. But this family believed also in the power of this keris. They where convinced this keris had a spirit and also made rituals to the keris. I also do remember that the Mrs told me that a friend of the family offered her a big amount of money for the keris. She didn't sell it because it was her family's heirloom.

So what is tourist?

Now i also have such a keris in my collection with a good balinese blade. In my opinion when the carving isn't done too sloppy such a keris fits well in a collection.

GIO · 16th October 2013, 11:44 AM

My proposal was not to spend much money: a decent Cecekahan or Bebondolan hilt is currently sold on ebay for about $ 50.00, and cleaning the blade with pineapple or lemon juce would bring out the pamor at practically no cost.
This said, I respect everybody's opinion and leave to the owner to make what he consider better for him. Now he has all information to decide.

15th October 2013, 08:52 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,328	First, I am in absolute agreement with David regarding redressing the blade in question. While we still discuss this keris I have bought a keris in a similar dress/sarung in a little bit better form and with a good blade IMHO. See here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Kris...vip=true&rt=nc By this I have the same question like David (who as well own a keris in a similar sarung): Was a keris in such a sarung ever acceptable for Bali people to wear it? Or was it only a way to sell a single blade, equal which quality, to tourists? Attached Images

15th October 2013, 10:06 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	I have often seen halfway decent blades fitted into this type of dress. This may well be a way to cheaply sheath a naked blade in order to sell it. I do, however, have a variation on this sheath form which seems to clearly have been made for the blade, not simply refitted. So the question remains...

16th October 2013, 01:13 AM	#4
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	David, Thank you for your helpful and encouraging words. You are correct in describing me as a general collector of weapons. Here in New Zealand I would be described as a "Magpie" collector. A Magpie is a bird which compulsively collects bright and shiny objects and takes them back to the nest. They can't be eaten, so are of no practical use to the bird, so I guess that he just looks at them with bird pleasure! Could any other forum members be described as "Magpies"? Best, Brian

16th October 2013, 09:29 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Regarding use of this style of dress by Balinese people. This is a non-traditional style of wrongko that does not fit any purpose in Balinese society --- except to sell to foreigners. There is a Balinese style, that is usually associated with a Balinese settlement in Madura, that echoes this scabbard style, it has a metal mask of Boma on its face. With the early ones that were made, and through to the 1970's, maybe even early 1980's, old blades very often had this style of dress made for them, simply so they could be sold in the souvenir shops. It was not a re-fit job, not a matter of making the scabbard and then fitting a blade, it was a process of:- acquire blade, make dress, sell to tourist. The uwer on this keris will be found to have plastic "jewels". It looks OK, but the "jewels" will be little bits of plastic.

16th October 2013, 09:35 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	The reason that the early examples of this type of dress used old blades, sometimes of rather acceptable quality, is that way back then keris in Bali were very much undervalued. In the 1960's and 1970's the value of a keris in Bali was next to nothing. So, people had old blades hanging around, that had no scabbard or hilt, and thus were unsaleable to the tourists as souvenirs, because the tourists, being mostly westerners, did not understand that the true value of the keris, both monetary and spiritual, was in the blade. To make these old blades saleable they were given to the carvers in Mas who developed a form of dress that displayed the carvers' skills and which was attractive to the visitors to Bali as a souvenir. Eventually the real blades ran out. There was now a market for these souvenir keris but no real blades were left to fill the scabbards. So the Balinese people began to produce keris blades made from flat iron and give this flat iron a false pamor. The tourists didn't care, they were buying the carving, not the blade. People go to Bali now and come home with their suitcases full of clothes with prestige labels --- all fake of course, but in the best examples as good as, or maybe even better than the originals. I know two professional women who go to Bali every six months to update their wardrobes. Factories are set up to produce the famous brands of surf clothes. Factories that the Australian owners then go to Bali and burn down, only to see them in production again in 6 months time. Or sooner. In Bali, as in Indonesia in general, fake everything floods the market. You really do need to be very, very skilled and knowledgeable to buy any genuine article of any kind from an Indonesian source. But back in the 1960's, 1970's, and even as late as 1982, it was very different. If you went to Bali for a holiday you always took your old Levi jeans and a couple of second-hand surf towels. A pair of Levi jeans would cover a week's accommodation in a homestay.Including breakfast.Black rice pudding or banana pancakes. You could exchange the towels for the other comforts of home. When we consider anything at all to do with keris we need to consider not the keris, but the condition of the society at the relevant time. This is as true of the recent past as it is of the distant past. Don't ask your questions in terms of just the keris. Ask your questions in terms of the society.

16th October 2013, 11:15 AM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	A lot of opinions here. I also agree completely with David. I would keep this keris as it is. If possible a proper stain of the blade to get the real pamor out otherwise i would leave it as it is. When i was a youngster and put my first steps on collecting, i used to visit my neighbours of indonesian origin. They had such a keris on the wall. It was more in the style of the keris Detleff showed us. But i still remember that the backside of the scabbard was carved as well. I had the honor to handle this keris a few times. Probably because of my admiration of this keris. But this family believed also in the power of this keris. They where convinced this keris had a spirit and also made rituals to the keris. I also do remember that the Mrs told me that a friend of the family offered her a big amount of money for the keris. She didn't sell it because it was her family's heirloom. So what is tourist? Now i also have such a keris in my collection with a good balinese blade. In my opinion when the carving isn't done too sloppy such a keris fits well in a collection.

16th October 2013, 11:44 AM	#10
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 330	My proposal was not to spend much money: a decent Cecekahan or Bebondolan hilt is currently sold on ebay for about $ 50.00, and cleaning the blade with pineapple or lemon juce would bring out the pamor at practically no cost. This said, I respect everybody's opinion and leave to the owner to make what he consider better for him. Now he has all information to decide.