floating melati?

sirek · 7th October 2013, 09:14 PM

Hello Yuuzan
Semanggi did cross my mind, but had my doubts because the shape looks more like a Maltese cross (IMHO)

(image from the web: pamor Semanggi)

A. G. Maisey · 7th October 2013, 10:08 PM

I have not seen the "Pamor Atlas", I do not know who wrote it, I do not know what the sources for the information contained therein were.

I do know that I have never seen this pamor in an old blade (pre-WWII).

I saw this pamor for the first time maybe 15 or 20 years ago, in a blade from Madura. At that time I was told that it was a new pamor and that its name was "ron catur" :- ron = leaf (krama for godhong), catur = four (literary usage, Kawi).

In Javanese the word "semanggi" is the name of a herb that has three leaves, not four, and is used in food ; however in Indonesian the word "semanggi" translates as "clover".
It is also the name of a vegetable dish that uses a lot of spice.
It is also the name of a kampung in Solo.

I'm guessing here, but I feel that whoever coined the term "Semanggi" to describe this or another pamor, grabbed the nearest Indonesian dictionary to find a suitable term.
However, in Jawa, pamor names are correctly given in Javanese, not Indonesian.
A Malay name for a pamor can be acceptable when that pamor is a Malay pamor, and Indonesian is based on a form of Malay as it is spoken in Southern Sumatera.
But this pamor we're talking about comes from Madura, so it should have either a Madurese name, or a Javanese name, not an Indonesian or Malay name.

The variation between the name that may, or may not be able to be given to this pamor under discussion, according to the Pamor Atlas, and the name that I was given for it by an Empu of the Karaton Susuhunan in Surakarta, is just one of the reasons why I feel that when we seek names for things that we cannot understand we need to be very careful in respect of the name that we eventually accept as correct.

Technically this is a surface manipulated pamor that has been made in a similar way to udan mas. It is a reversal of the well-known Surakarta pamor "X", the pamor that in its current application recognises Pakubuwana X as an iconic figure, and in its original application was an early 20th century Karaton pamor.

EDIT

While I was writing the above the images of "pamor semanggi" were posted.

I personally regard the upper image as one of the variations of udan mas, and I cannot see the lower image clearly enough to guess at what it might be --- if I even have a name for it.

FURTHER EDIT

Lucky four leaf clovers in Jawa?

I really do think that this idea is stretching the Irish Connection just a wee bit too much.

David · 8th October 2013, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Lucky four leaf clovers in Jawa?

I really do think that this idea is stretching the Irish Connection just a wee bit too much.

Yes, that was precisely my thought as well. While the concept of the lucky four-leaf clover does extend itself beyond the Emerald Isle i do not believe it is part of the cultures of the Indonesian archipelago.

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2013, 03:09 AM

What is this "Pamor Atlas" anyway?

I've seen it mentioned a few times, but I cannot find any explanations online, I've never seen it, I don't know anything about it.

How credible is it?

Marcokeris · 8th October 2013, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What is this "Pamor Atlas" anyway?

I've seen it mentioned a few times, but I cannot find any explanations online, I've never seen it, I don't know anything about it.

How credible is it?

Pamor Atlas is a self publishing book (2006) by Ing E.A.N. Van Veenedaal. Is written all in german language so impossible for me to understand. Is a list of "not clear" pics of pamors. I have this book only because i like to have all (nice or bad) books, articles, etc about keris

Bjorn · 8th October 2013, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Pamor Atlas is a self publishing book (2006) by Ing E.A.N. Van Veenedaal. Is written all in german language so impossible for me to understand. Is a list of "not clear" pics of pamors. I have this book only because i like to have all (nice or bad) books, articles, etc about keris

Please don't go holiday in the Netherlands and tell people there they speak German

They might give you the evil eye!

Joking aside, German and Dutch are often mixed up but the Pamoratlas is written in Dutch.

I have a copied version of the book myself and the quality of the pictures is not that good. I always suspected this was due to the quality of the copies but it seems the source material's quality leaves something to be desired.

Marcokeris · 8th October 2013, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuuzan

Please don't go holiday in the Netherlands and tell people there they speak German

They might give you the evil eye!

Joking aside, German and Dutch are often mixed up but the Pamoratlas is written in Dutch.

I have a copied version of the book myself and the quality of the pictures is not that good. I always suspected this was due to the quality of the copies but it seems the source material's quality leaves something to be desired.

Sorry you are right is not German ...but if they give me the devil eye i surely will be very happy

Bjorn · 8th October 2013, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What is this "Pamor Atlas" anyway?

I've seen it mentioned a few times, but I cannot find any explanations online, I've never seen it, I don't know anything about it.

How credible is it?

The Pamoratlas was published in 2006 by E.A.N. van Veenendaal and updated in 2011. It is a Dutch publication and has never been translated (to my knowledge). Some information from the book's introduction:

- Author became hooked on keris when his dad brought him one in 1951.
- Became a collector and was especially fascinated by pamor patterns.
- Spent 4 to 5 months in Southeast Asia every year for the 15 years prior to 2006.
- Visited museums, collectors, remaining empu, and other people with knowledge on the subject.
- Extends his thanks to Krt. Sukoyo Dipuro (Surabaya) and Bambang Harsrinuksmo (Jakarta) for their contributions.

The book classifies pamor patterns by category, e.g. leaf shapes, angular shapes, spherical, etc. Each entry contains a small amount of information on the pamor's meaning and attributes, whether it is mlumah, rekan and/or tiban and a small comparison to similar pamor patterns. These are accompanied by schematic drawings and/or photos.

As for its credibility, I hesitate to give a strong opinion on that as I feel my own knowledge on the subject is far from adequate. Personally, I find it useful to at least look up a name for a pattern I am unfamiliar with. As far as I can tell, the book does correctly classify patterns such as uler lulut, lar gansir, udan mas, etc. In other words, to my knowledge, the book generally ascribes the generally accepted name to the corresponding pamor pattern. It also includes local variations (Madurese, Balinese, East Javanese, etc. where known). As to the esoteric meanings of the patterns, I dare not venture to say how accurate the provided information is.

As for pamor semanggi: The book does not make any sort of distinction between new and old pamor patterns.
Considering its a very young pattern, could it be that it acquired a name in Bahasa Indonesia in order to appeal to more potential buyers?

Whatever the case may be, I do find it an attractive pattern. It's good to see new patterns can still be made in the modern era and that the keris is alive and well in today's Indonesia.

sirek · 11th October 2013, 06:17 PM

All your comments are appreciated, many thanks!

While I read them, I think there is still an interest in a pamor-thread

Quote:

originally posted by:A. G. Maisey
I do know that I have never seen this pamor in an old blade (pre-WWII).
I saw this pamor for the first time maybe 15 or 20 years ago, in a blade from Madura. At that time I was told that it was a new pamor and that its name was "ron catur" :- ron = leaf (krama for godhong), catur = four (literary usage, Kawi)

IMHO this kind of information is unique and important and could make a positive contribution for a pamor- thread, because it is not found in the existing books or mighty Google.( (in spite of their imperfections I guess for many still the largest/only source of information)

I hope someday someone picked this up, so that this type of information will not be lost in the future.

7th October 2013, 09:14 PM	#1
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 171	Hello Yuuzan Semanggi did cross my mind, but had my doubts because the shape looks more like a Maltese cross (IMHO) (image from the web: pamor Semanggi) Attached Images Last edited by sirek; 7th October 2013 at 09:35 PM.

7th October 2013, 10:08 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	I have not seen the "Pamor Atlas", I do not know who wrote it, I do not know what the sources for the information contained therein were. I do know that I have never seen this pamor in an old blade (pre-WWII). I saw this pamor for the first time maybe 15 or 20 years ago, in a blade from Madura. At that time I was told that it was a new pamor and that its name was "ron catur" :- ron = leaf (krama for godhong), catur = four (literary usage, Kawi). In Javanese the word "semanggi" is the name of a herb that has three leaves, not four, and is used in food ; however in Indonesian the word "semanggi" translates as "clover". It is also the name of a vegetable dish that uses a lot of spice. It is also the name of a kampung in Solo. I'm guessing here, but I feel that whoever coined the term "Semanggi" to describe this or another pamor, grabbed the nearest Indonesian dictionary to find a suitable term. However, in Jawa, pamor names are correctly given in Javanese, not Indonesian. A Malay name for a pamor can be acceptable when that pamor is a Malay pamor, and Indonesian is based on a form of Malay as it is spoken in Southern Sumatera. But this pamor we're talking about comes from Madura, so it should have either a Madurese name, or a Javanese name, not an Indonesian or Malay name. The variation between the name that may, or may not be able to be given to this pamor under discussion, according to the Pamor Atlas, and the name that I was given for it by an Empu of the Karaton Susuhunan in Surakarta, is just one of the reasons why I feel that when we seek names for things that we cannot understand we need to be very careful in respect of the name that we eventually accept as correct. Technically this is a surface manipulated pamor that has been made in a similar way to udan mas. It is a reversal of the well-known Surakarta pamor "X", the pamor that in its current application recognises Pakubuwana X as an iconic figure, and in its original application was an early 20th century Karaton pamor. EDIT While I was writing the above the images of "pamor semanggi" were posted. I personally regard the upper image as one of the variations of udan mas, and I cannot see the lower image clearly enough to guess at what it might be --- if I even have a name for it. FURTHER EDIT Lucky four leaf clovers in Jawa? I really do think that this idea is stretching the Irish Connection just a wee bit too much. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 7th October 2013 at 10:14 PM. Reason: addition

8th October 2013, 03:09 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	What is this "Pamor Atlas" anyway? I've seen it mentioned a few times, but I cannot find any explanations online, I've never seen it, I don't know anything about it. How credible is it?