need some help about my new keris

tunggulametung · 11th September 2013, 03:52 PM

Hello,
There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

David · 11th September 2013, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello,
There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

hmmm....can can you tell us why you think this is a contemporary keris?
I am also confused by you opinion that "your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one." These seem to be two diametrically opposed opinions in one sentence. Which do you believe, that it has been altered or that it was made this way from day one? I am not sure that i see where it has been altered from the photos provided.
Personally i don't think the workmanship (garap) is that bad. This is not a masterpiece keris by any means but i am in agreement with Alan that it is an nice, old and unusual keris that aside from what appears to be some damage in the gandik area is in pretty good shape (sheath not withstanding). Frankly, i like keris that don't fit clearly into the mold. It seems senseless to me to create some kind of composite name simply to have a dhapur to tag onto this piece.

Jean · 11th September 2013, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

It seems senseless to me to create some kind of composite name simply to have a dhapur to tag onto this piece.

Yes, this is not a standard Central Javanese dhapur although as said by Chandra it could be called Sepang/ Damar Murub. The ganja sepang is not standard. Additionally the strange kembang kacang and grooves seem reminiscent of the Megantara dapur (see pictures). The maker should have been (or be) a very imaginative guy!

Regards

auk · 11th September 2013, 07:20 PM

Hello thanks fore the new reply,s
is it helpfull if i post a picture from the peksi
also i was reading some older article of keris and found this on vikingsword
about the keris megantara like jean mentioned i see a little risemble in the blade specialy over the deep central fuller of the blade that blade that extends almost to the tip see the fifth picture on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99755
greetings auk

David · 11th September 2013, 08:00 PM

I've tried my best to enlarge and enhance this image. Still hard to know anything without this blade in hand.
Jean, perhaps you could share with us where you see signs of this being a recent or altered blade. Frankly i just can't tell what's up in that gandik area.

Jean · 11th September 2013, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Jean, perhaps you could share with us where you see signs of this being a recent or altered blade. Frankly i just can't tell what's up in that gandik area.

Hi David,
Yes the gandik/ kembang kacang is odd indeed. As Chandra raised the subject of a possibly recent or altered blade I will let him reply first and complement the observations or impressions if needed. I have no definite opinion myself, and just want to exchange with the other forumites about this interesting subject.
Regards

David · 11th September 2013, 08:42 PM

OK Jean, no worries. I just thought that since you expressed some doubts yourself about this being and an old and/or original blade you might be able to explain your own reasoning. I certainly agree with you that discerning the indicators of an altered blade or new blades made to look old is of great importance to us as collectors.

Henk · 11th September 2013, 08:59 PM

Yes. David was right. It was too frontal. With these pictures we are quit sure there is no figure of what kind in the gandik.

Hard to classify this keris. I'm with David and Alan. I cann't either subscribe the meaning of tunggulametung. What I see is a very nice old keris. Not a masterpiece, but I love it.
Dhapur has a Damar Murub appearance and the pamor is wos wutah or beras wutah. I have an old dutch book that says when the dhapur cann't be named all different names of the individual parts should be mentioned. In the way tunggulametung did.

Anyway imho a very attractive older keris.

tunggulametung · 12th September 2013, 04:07 PM

Keris connoisseurs, first here’s a little joke for you:
1. If you are presented with a keris (presumably with some luks) and you don’t know how to count how many luk it has, or you have to manually count the luk before you can decide how many luk it has, than you are fairly new to keris collecting. I'm fairly sure that none of us in this forum fall into this category.

2. If you are presented with a keris (presumably luk 3-9), and you can quickly name how many luk it has without manually counting it, and/or you made some mistake especially on luk 7 or 9 (but that's okay!) then you are an apprentice. I think I fall in this category

3. If you are presented with a keris (presumably luk 11-13), and you can quickly name how many luk it has without manually counting it, then you are a journeyman. I think many of this forum member fall in this category

4. If you are presented with a keris (luk 15 onwards), and you can quickly name how many luk it has without manually counting it, then you are a master. Yes I'm speaking about the silent majority

5. If you are presented with a sheathed keris, be it luk or straight, and you can tell whether it is luk or straight, and/or you at least once in your lifetime decide to (would have) buy a sheathed keris without seeing the blade then you are a grand master. This title reserved for few, few, select, seasoned collectors only

Anyway...

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....can can you tell us why you think this is a contemporary keris?

Yes I can. The unusual dapur make a good indication, its condition doesn't look natural, garap in my opinion indicate contemporary keris--see my comment about garap further below. Material and pamor work looks good, but that doesn't always equal old keris (read antique/great age).

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am also confused by you opinion that "your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one." These seem to be two diametrically opposed opinions in one sentence. Which do you believe, that it has been altered or that it was made this way from day one? I am not sure that i see where it has been altered from the photos provided.

I’m sorry if my opinion confused you, I meant to say either, including its combination. I won't be surprised if the keris was made to look unusual intentionally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Personally i don't think the workmanship (garap) is that bad. This is not a masterpiece keris by any means but i am in agreement with Alan that it is an nice, old and unusual keris that aside from what appears to be some damage in the gandik area is in pretty good shape (sheath not withstanding). Frankly, i like keris that don't fit clearly into the mold. It seems senseless to me to create some kind of composite name simply to have a dhapur to tag onto this piece.

I believe there are general consensus on that but garap can be very subjective matter to judge, so I have no further comment on that.
I have abandoned (or only loosely based my view on) some popular classification like tangguh, pamor, dapur, etc... so for me a good keris can be just about anything, I'm open to variations etc and to have some tasteful surprise sometime is nice, but the mold is there for a good reason, think of doughnut, baguette or croissant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

..... I know your experience and as you live in Jakarta you are more familiar with the tricks of the trade than most of us. Personally I find this question of distinguishing between a genuine old blade from a recent and altered one as very difficult and primordial for a collector and any input on tis subject is welcome. So please elaborate more about the observations and findings which make you believe that this is not an old blade, we are listening!

Jean, unfortunately I don't have any easy solution or claim that I can distinguish between the two, sorry. I doubt that geographic location and familiarity on some 'tricks of the trade' help much. I just based my view on general/universally accepted indicator. Some are easily distinguishable, some are not so, some are indistinguishable. In this matter I doubt that I’m any better than you or anyone in this forum

Jean · 12th September 2013, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

5. If you are presented with a sheathed keris, be it luk or straight, and you can tell whether it is luk or straight, and/or you at least once in your lifetime decide to (would have) buy a sheathed keris without seeing the blade then you are a grand master. This title reserved for few, few, select, seasoned collectors only

Thank you Chandra
Sajen successfully achieved this recently, congratulations to him for getting the grand master medal!

Regards

Sajen · 12th September 2013, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you Chandra
Sajen successfully achieved this recently, congratulations to him for getting the grand master medal!

Regards

I am fairly sure that I am at best a apprentice but maybe a good "poker player"!

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2013, 12:20 AM

Tunggulametung, I like that little sketch of the way in which to assess a master. However, I cannot agree that this method of assessment is useful to assess whether a person is learned in the keris, or not. What it does tell us is how familiar that person is with handling keris. For example, a dealer who handles many keris on a daily basis could reasonably be expected to reach level 4 in 100% of cases, and to reach level 5 in most cases.

But this is not the equivalent of the understanding of the keris that is required of a true ahli keris --- or perhaps I should say it is not the equivalent of the understanding of the keris that was required of a true ahli keris.

So yes, I do agree that such a standard applied as an indicator of keris understanding is indeed a joke, and quite a good one.

I do note that you use the word "collector", but the true keris master is not the collector, nor the dealer. The true master is the Ahli Keris. The man to whom both dealers and collectors alike turn for guidance.

Here below is a free translation of part of a lecture given to (I believe) the Boworoso Tosan Aji in the late 1970's or early 1980's. The lecture was given in Javanese, and it reflects the opinions of noted ahli keris of the era between about 1880 and 1940.

QUOTE:-

" In the understanding of keris there are three levels:-
1. To learn the features (keadaan lahir)
2. To learn the form
3. To learn the feeling.

The way that was used in olden times to assess the features of a keris was to understand the period, the shape and the condition (sepuh, tangguh, wutuh).
Another guide that was used was mor-ja-si-rap-ngun :- mor=pamor, ja=waja, si=wesi, rap=garap, ngun=wangun.

Good pamor has the following features:- the pamor on both sides of the blade is the same and covers the same amount of the blade. The exception to this rule is pamor tangkis.
Good waja does not bend or break easily
Good wesi is fine grained and smooth , not easily damaged and is assessed independent of the pamor and the waja.

Good garap should be deep. For example, the kruwingan should be deep; the bend of the tikel alis should be deep and refined; the sogokan should be deep and have a cross section like a round bottomed cooking pot, the shape of the sogokan should be formed like the shape of a wading bird's beak (burung bango), the gulo milir should be deep and refined.

A good overall visual impression (pawakan) will give a harmonious feeling when viewed at arm's length. The pawakan will not lean forward too much and will not stand too straight.

Included in this first level of learning is the learning of tangguh. This is the understanding of the characteristics of the blade in a way that will give an indication of the period to which it belongs according to the decisions given to us by our ancestors who studied keris.
For example , tangguh Mataram Senopaten has the meaning that the keris was made in the Mataram period, under the rule of Panembahan Senopati. The tangguh indicators would be:- light weight, shallow waves, thin pawakan, pamor visible in the sogokan and the blumbangan, square blumbangan, the gonjo slightly bent and sometimes tending to nguceng mati but if the keris is the work of Mpu Guling the gonjo should be rontal.

To learn all that is included in level one will use a number of years, and when perfection has been reached in level one it becomes possible to proceed to level two.

In level two it is necessary to gain an understanding of the ideas of guwaya and wanda.

Guwaya is of two types:- guwaya cebleh and guwaya mendasar.

If a keris has guwaya cebleh the blade will remain pale and unattractive after it has been stained; if it has guwaya mendasar it will appear prestigious and attractive after it has been stained. We should be able to know the guwaya of a keris before it has been stained. (diwarangi)

Wanda is the personality or the feeling of a keris. A keris can cause different feelings in different people, in the same way that a man can be judged differently by different people. Examples of the feeling presented by a keris could be:- wild, brave, angry, proud, friendly, quiet, bad, afraid.

When perfection has been reached in the second level of keris understanding it becomes possible to try to reach the third level of keris understanding.

When this level has been reached it is not necessary to see a keris to judge that keris. A person who is skilled at level three of keris understanding will judge the keris from vibration alone and can receive a clear impression of the esoteric qualities of the keris. For example, it can be understood whether this keris would be good for a person in authority to own, or whether it will give safety to its owner during a journey, whether it will be good for trade, and so on.

The spirit (batin) of a keris is not necessarily the same as the judgement which comes from appraisal of the form or features of the keris. For example, a keris could be of poor or unattractive features and form, but its spirit could be good."

END QUOTE

The man who delivered this lecture was Mpu Suparman Wignyosukadgo.

My question now is this:-

In accordance with the standards that applied in times past, how many people in today's keris world have qualified as having an understanding of the keris at the most basic level?

I am addressing this subject from a Javanese perspective, because I think that in this case this is the approach that should be taken. By taking this approach I am accepting the elements of the keris belief system, as those elements are accepted in Javanese tradition.

In other words I'm not interested in getting involved in discussion about whether what I have recounted is correct or incorrect. From the Javanese traditionalist perspective it is beyond challenge and stands as an unassailable truth.

In respect of the specific keris under discussion.
All and any opinions formed of this keris are based upon photographs .
Based upon what I believe I can see in those photographs, my opinion remains as stated. The elements of the form and material are in accordance with examples of older keris that I have seen, handled and own. The weight of photographic evidence indicates age with the possibility of some alteration.

Others are of course entitled to their own opinions, however, in the absence of the physical presence of the keris itself, all opinions must be subject to the same qualification --- unless, of course, any of us has personal knowledge of the keris concerned.

tunggulametung · 15th September 2013, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

..................
Here below is a free translation of part of a lecture given to (I believe) the Boworoso Tosan Aji in the late 1970's or early 1980's. The lecture was given in Javanese, and it reflects the opinions of noted ahli keris of the era between about 1880 and 1940
......................
My question now is this:-

In accordance with the standards that applied in times past, how many people in today's keris world have qualified as having an understanding of the keris at the most basic level?
......................

Thank you for quoting the interesting lecture.
To answer your question I must say I don't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Others are of course entitled to their own opinions, however, in the absence of the physical presence of the keris itself, all opinions must be subject to the same qualification --- unless, of course, any of us has personal knowledge of the keris concerned.

Yes, I believe we are all agree with that.

Sajen · 12th September 2013, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

5. If you are presented with a sheathed keris, be it luk or straight, and you can tell whether it is luk or straight, and/or you at least once in your lifetime decide to (would have) buy a sheathed keris without seeing the blade then you are a grand master. This title reserved for few, few, select, seasoned collectors only

Jean · 11th September 2013, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello,
There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

Hello Chandra,
Thank you for your interesting opinion and personally I would not discard it too quickly as I also see some signs that this may be a recent or altered piece. I know your experience and as you live in Jakarta you are more familiar with the tricks of the trade than most of us. Personally I find this question of distinguishing between a genuine old blade from a recent and altered one as very difficult and primordial for a collector and any input on tis subject is welcome. So please elaborate more about the observations and findings which make you believe that this is not an old blade, we are listening!

Best regards

11th September 2013, 07:20 PM	#4
auk Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 28	Hello thanks fore the new reply,s is it helpfull if i post a picture from the peksi also i was reading some older article of keris and found this on vikingsword about the keris megantara like jean mentioned i see a little risemble in the blade specialy over the deep central fuller of the blade that blade that extends almost to the tip see the fifth picture on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99755 greetings auk Last edited by auk; 11th September 2013 at 07:42 PM.

11th September 2013, 08:00 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I've tried my best to enlarge and enhance this image. Still hard to know anything without this blade in hand. Jean, perhaps you could share with us where you see signs of this being a recent or altered blade. Frankly i just can't tell what's up in that gandik area. Attached Images

11th September 2013, 03:52 PM	#1
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello, There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

11th September 2013, 08:42 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	OK Jean, no worries. I just thought that since you expressed some doubts yourself about this being and an old and/or original blade you might be able to explain your own reasoning. I certainly agree with you that discerning the indicators of an altered blade or new blades made to look old is of great importance to us as collectors.

11th September 2013, 08:59 PM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Yes. David was right. It was too frontal. With these pictures we are quit sure there is no figure of what kind in the gandik. Hard to classify this keris. I'm with David and Alan. I cann't either subscribe the meaning of tunggulametung. What I see is a very nice old keris. Not a masterpiece, but I love it. Dhapur has a Damar Murub appearance and the pamor is wos wutah or beras wutah. I have an old dutch book that says when the dhapur cann't be named all different names of the individual parts should be mentioned. In the way tunggulametung did. Anyway imho a very attractive older keris.

13th September 2013, 12:20 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Tunggulametung, I like that little sketch of the way in which to assess a master. However, I cannot agree that this method of assessment is useful to assess whether a person is learned in the keris, or not. What it does tell us is how familiar that person is with handling keris. For example, a dealer who handles many keris on a daily basis could reasonably be expected to reach level 4 in 100% of cases, and to reach level 5 in most cases. But this is not the equivalent of the understanding of the keris that is required of a true ahli keris --- or perhaps I should say it is not the equivalent of the understanding of the keris that was required of a true ahli keris. So yes, I do agree that such a standard applied as an indicator of keris understanding is indeed a joke, and quite a good one. I do note that you use the word "collector", but the true keris master is not the collector, nor the dealer. The true master is the Ahli Keris. The man to whom both dealers and collectors alike turn for guidance. Here below is a free translation of part of a lecture given to (I believe) the Boworoso Tosan Aji in the late 1970's or early 1980's. The lecture was given in Javanese, and it reflects the opinions of noted ahli keris of the era between about 1880 and 1940. QUOTE:- " In the understanding of keris there are three levels:- 1. To learn the features (keadaan lahir) 2. To learn the form 3. To learn the feeling. The way that was used in olden times to assess the features of a keris was to understand the period, the shape and the condition (sepuh, tangguh, wutuh). Another guide that was used was mor-ja-si-rap-ngun :- mor=pamor, ja=waja, si=wesi, rap=garap, ngun=wangun. Good pamor has the following features:- the pamor on both sides of the blade is the same and covers the same amount of the blade. The exception to this rule is pamor tangkis. Good waja does not bend or break easily Good wesi is fine grained and smooth , not easily damaged and is assessed independent of the pamor and the waja. Good garap should be deep. For example, the kruwingan should be deep; the bend of the tikel alis should be deep and refined; the sogokan should be deep and have a cross section like a round bottomed cooking pot, the shape of the sogokan should be formed like the shape of a wading bird's beak (burung bango), the gulo milir should be deep and refined. A good overall visual impression (pawakan) will give a harmonious feeling when viewed at arm's length. The pawakan will not lean forward too much and will not stand too straight. Included in this first level of learning is the learning of tangguh. This is the understanding of the characteristics of the blade in a way that will give an indication of the period to which it belongs according to the decisions given to us by our ancestors who studied keris. For example , tangguh Mataram Senopaten has the meaning that the keris was made in the Mataram period, under the rule of Panembahan Senopati. The tangguh indicators would be:- light weight, shallow waves, thin pawakan, pamor visible in the sogokan and the blumbangan, square blumbangan, the gonjo slightly bent and sometimes tending to nguceng mati but if the keris is the work of Mpu Guling the gonjo should be rontal. To learn all that is included in level one will use a number of years, and when perfection has been reached in level one it becomes possible to proceed to level two. In level two it is necessary to gain an understanding of the ideas of guwaya and wanda. Guwaya is of two types:- guwaya cebleh and guwaya mendasar. If a keris has guwaya cebleh the blade will remain pale and unattractive after it has been stained; if it has guwaya mendasar it will appear prestigious and attractive after it has been stained. We should be able to know the guwaya of a keris before it has been stained. (diwarangi) Wanda is the personality or the feeling of a keris. A keris can cause different feelings in different people, in the same way that a man can be judged differently by different people. Examples of the feeling presented by a keris could be:- wild, brave, angry, proud, friendly, quiet, bad, afraid. When perfection has been reached in the second level of keris understanding it becomes possible to try to reach the third level of keris understanding. When this level has been reached it is not necessary to see a keris to judge that keris. A person who is skilled at level three of keris understanding will judge the keris from vibration alone and can receive a clear impression of the esoteric qualities of the keris. For example, it can be understood whether this keris would be good for a person in authority to own, or whether it will give safety to its owner during a journey, whether it will be good for trade, and so on. The spirit (batin) of a keris is not necessarily the same as the judgement which comes from appraisal of the form or features of the keris. For example, a keris could be of poor or unattractive features and form, but its spirit could be good." END QUOTE The man who delivered this lecture was Mpu Suparman Wignyosukadgo. My question now is this:- In accordance with the standards that applied in times past, how many people in today's keris world have qualified as having an understanding of the keris at the most basic level? I am addressing this subject from a Javanese perspective, because I think that in this case this is the approach that should be taken. By taking this approach I am accepting the elements of the keris belief system, as those elements are accepted in Javanese tradition. In other words I'm not interested in getting involved in discussion about whether what I have recounted is correct or incorrect. From the Javanese traditionalist perspective it is beyond challenge and stands as an unassailable truth. In respect of the specific keris under discussion. All and any opinions formed of this keris are based upon photographs . Based upon what I believe I can see in those photographs, my opinion remains as stated. The elements of the form and material are in accordance with examples of older keris that I have seen, handled and own. The weight of photographic evidence indicates age with the possibility of some alteration. Others are of course entitled to their own opinions, however, in the absence of the physical presence of the keris itself, all opinions must be subject to the same qualification --- unless, of course, any of us has personal knowledge of the keris concerned.