The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Well I figured you'd be interested in pieces with provenance... I've asked about it multiple times now in this thread, not one answer. I guess that says all that needs to be said.

I'll have one last shot at this before I give up on this thread completely.

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Salaams Iain~ You may, as you wish, and at any time give up... that is none of my business... do what you will, however, I'm not giving up.

You have asked me several times about this European collections situation and looking back I think I have indicated my position and as a researcher here in Oman on the subject of the Omani Dancing Sword. Its an Omani Sword but certainly if I could I would examine European collections pieces. I live on the border of the UAE and OMAN ... It's a long way to Europe and I have, thus, no access to European collections. However, since this is the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword am I not reasonable in searching for details here? It is after all The Omani National Sword !

Your question about European mark is placed here in red;

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Do you think that a couple of Omani Dancing Swords with copies of European style Passau Wolf marks indicates some sort of design transference of that sword from European to Omani culture?

Personally; I don't think so at all.

What I think is that blade marks on Omani dancing swords come in many shapes and forms all copied and or stamped/chiselled here... from Indian British Raj, Persian Lion and Sword, wolf marks, talismanic squares, various geometric shapes, stars, to straight applied Islamic marks in Arabic e.g.God Is Great etc etc.

Why do I think they struck the odd blade with wolf marks? No doubt because they admired the mark perhaps of quaility in blades and for quite the same reason they struck talismanic squares on some blades due to superstition/ power to the blade/good luck/protection ... It is a fact that the wolf appears in Talismanic belief here (the abu futtila is often seen with wolf skin applied to the butt) so it could be simply that. I can't see how that implies a transfer in sword design. I have seen wolf marks on the Old Omani Battle Sword but I don't think that implies a European design in that item does it?

The shape and design of the Omani Dancing Sword, however, owes nought in my opinion to European sword shape and a whole lot to the previous stiff Omani Battle Sword... which even has the same shield The Terrs... and the blade is razor sharp to both edges and the tip is round... not to mention its role in the Funoon.

The hilt known generally as The Omani Long Hilt in a flatish long conical form poses another question as to origin but again I see no European influence there but if anything perhaps African Mendingo style though it is not clear yet which came first; The Kattara Longhilt or The Omani Dancing Sword Longhilt. Since we have the Dynastic Swords birthdate at 1744 I'm certain an answer is close.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain~ You may, as you wish, and at any time give up... that is none of my business... do what you will, however, I'm not giving up.

There's a lot of repetition on these threads meaning there's little point posting at the moment as there are several perspectives which are in complete opposition. I look forward to further discussion after you've had a chance to pursue your inquires with the museums local to you.

You have asked me several times about this European collections situation and looking back I think I have indicated my position and as a researcher here in Oman on the subject of the Omani Dancing Sword. Its an Omani Sword but certainly if I could I would examine European collections pieces. I live on the border of the UAE and OMAN ... It's a long way to Europe and I have, thus, no access to European collections. However, since this is the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword am I not reasonable in searching for details here? It is after all The Omani National Sword !

I'd suggested looking in European collections previously because of the issue of "freeze" meaning a weapon was removed and not changed for a specified period. Providing hard evidence for how the weapon was at differing periods. Hopefully you can find that locally.

Your question about European mark is placed here in red;

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Do you think that a couple of Omani Dancing Swords with copies of European style Passau Wolf marks indicates some sort of design transference of that sword from European to Omani culture?

Personally; I don't think so at all.

What I think is that blade marks on Omani dancing swords come in many shapes and forms all copied and or stamped/chiselled here... from Indian British Raj, Persian Lion and Sword, wolf marks, talismanic squares, various geometric shapes, stars, to straight applied Islamic marks in Arabic e.g.God Is Great etc etc.

Why do I think they struck the odd blade with wolf marks? No doubt because they admired the mark perhaps of quaility in blades and for quite the same reason they struck talismanic squares on some blades due to superstition/ power to the blade/good luck/protection ... It is a fact that the wolf appears in Talismanic belief here (the abu futtila is often seen with wolf skin applied to the butt) so it could be simply that. I can't see how that implies a transfer in sword design. I have seen wolf marks on the Old Omani Battle Sword but I don't think that implies a European design in that item does it?

It implies influence in the blades via exposure as do some of the aspects I've mentioned in the past. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure readers of the thread can and will make up their own minds.

All the best,
Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

There's a lot of repetition on these threads meaning there's little point posting at the moment as there are several perspectives which are in complete opposition. I look forward to further discussion after you've had a chance to pursue your inquires with the museums local to you.



I'd suggested looking in European collections previously because of the issue of "freeze" meaning a weapon was removed and not changed for a specified period. Providing hard evidence for how the weapon was at differing periods. Hopefully you can find that locally.



It implies influence in the blades via exposure as do some of the aspects I've mentioned in the past. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure readers of the thread can and will make up their own minds.

All the best,
Iain

Salaams Iain, No doubt I shall get the confirming evidence from the National Museum at some future point. On reflection I have to say that you have chosen to weave into your post several quite extraordinary and strage pieces of logic for example in;

para 1... a peculiar link between apparent repetition and no point in posting which I cannot fathom...and coupled to inquiries at the museum?..I am unable to unravel that.

para 2... Freeze? Are you suggesting that the design of the Omani Dancing Sword has changed since its inception in 1744? No it hasn't. Do you imagine that there is a 1744 document waiting to be discovered perhaps next to the original dancing sword in some museum? No there isn't.

para 3...I am amazed that you think there is some odd linkage between blade marks locally applied and dancing sword design. There are some blade marks with stars on them ... does that imply they went to the moon?

Lastly your suggestion that readers will make up their minds and seemingly placed as The Sword of Damacles over my posts is just simply rediculous.. This forum, in hammering out the facts, expects disagreement and at times heated debate and generally over the hot anvil of discussion takes no heed of whether readers agree or not. This post is alive and kicking and the twists and turns encountered have no place in whether people agree or don't. If they don't agree the rules are simple; let them either do nothing or join the debate! The ink is free !!

It is our job (as I see it) to shine a light into the dark recesses of a bleak and murky history laden with lies and deceit, errors and misrepresentation and hopefully at the end of the day appear with something closer to the truth. If we had a motto I think those words would be echoed in it...not roll over and die , give up or just nod your head and agree.

This isn't a trick with a bowler hat and a white rabbit!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to Forum..

I have just read an interesting article from J E Peterson ...see http://www.jepeterson.net/.../Oman_D...ociety_Norther... in which he expertly describes the quite diverse population in Muscat and perhaps points to sword manufacturing in the city..

Meanwhile here is an interesting couple of pictures showing two groups...I sketch of soldiers in 1840 in Muscat with weapons and a photograpg by Wilfred Thesiger in 1950 of Bin Gabaisha bin Kabina. I met the son of Bin Gabaisha the other day and he reports that his father is doing very well and still buying and selling camels!

The reason for including both pictures is to illustrate the similarity in the physique and hair of the two diverse ages... and to prove the warlike worthiness of both and thus to confirm the artist (Colm) in his portrayal of the men as accurate. It is known that Bin Gabaisha and Kabina were probably the fiercest bedu on the circuit more than 60 years ago and were true mercenaries, guides and friends to Thesiger.

What is significant about the sketch is ...straight dancing swords.. pushing the envelope for known swords of such description as far as 1840 and toward the benchmark date of 1744. It also illustrates the sword as unchanged.

These are Omani guard soldiers and carry the main weapon the abu futtila. So why do they have straight swords in their possession. The casual eye of the onlooker/artist would probably consider these as weapons but they are not. Like any soldier / officer today in the West there are those that are issued or own their own swords but carried only for the traditional parade ... for marching past the ruler / dignitary/ commander and for parade ground duties. When I say soldier I mean mounted cavalry ...although for infantry in the west the officers and certain high ranking senior NCO's also carry swords on parade... for the exact same reasons. Thus it was in 1840 and before, that Omani guards carried these swords since they would often be required to draw them in praise for the ruler and for pageantry duty.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

What is significant about the sketch is ...straight dancing swords.. pushing the envelope for known swords of such description as far as 1840 and toward the benchmark date of 1744. It also illustrates the sword as unchanged.

These are Omani guard soldiers and carry the main weapon the abu futtila. So why do they have straight swords in their possession. The casual eye of the onlooker/artist would probably consider these as weapons but they are not. Like any soldier / officer today in the West there are those that are issued or own their own swords but carried only for the traditional parade ... for marching past the ruler / dignitary/ commander and for parade ground duties. When I say soldier I mean mounted cavalry ...although for infantry in the west the officers and certain high ranking senior NCO's also carry swords on parade... for the exact same reasons. Thus it was in 1840 and before, that Omani guards carried these swords since they would often be required to draw them in praise for the ruler and for pageantry duty.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I have no doubt swords were used in parade, danced and for salute etc in 1840.

I do however doubt the picture can quantify that these are flimsy dance swords alone, especially in the era of 1840 and that there are no other swords present in the image.

The practical flip side to your suggestion, after all 1840 was an era or practicality not excess, is that these are the fighting swords and bucklers used by these guard soldiers after the use of a rifle has past...after all there are no other swords pictured and these swords are in the hands and on the belts of these warrior guards.
What were they to do if they are guards and they can not defend because they have bending dance swords as a secondary defence after the rifle was shot and combat became close quarters... Surely not stop a threat with words...guards are meant to be at the ready at all times so it makes more sense that those pictured were their weapons as a guard would not be without an edged weapon in 1840.

Fighting swords that can equally be used to dance and pay tribute but by primary needs alone and the presence of no other swords, it makes more sense as guards have sword that work not dance with bends....

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

I have no doubt swords were used in parade, danced and for salute etc in 1840.

I do however doubt the picture can quantify that these are flimsy dance swords alone, especially in the era of 1840 and that there are no other swords present in the image.

The practical flip side to your suggestion, after all 1840 was an era or practicality not excess, is that these are the fighting swords and bucklers used by these guard soldiers after the use of a rifle has past...after all there are no other swords pictured and these swords are in the hands and on the belts of these warrior guards.
What were they to do if they are guards and they can not defend because they have bending dance swords as a secondary defence after the rifle was shot and combat became close quarters... Surely not stop a threat with words...guards are meant to be at the ready at all times so it makes more sense that those pictured were their weapons as a guard would not be without an edged weapon in 1840.

Fighting swords that can equally be used to dance and pay tribute but by primary needs alone and the presence of no other swords, it makes more sense as guards have sword that work not dance with bends....

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ You suppose an awful lot from a sketch.

You have to realise that this is the earliest document with a sketch I can dig up from any resource so far... I have no qualms about bringing this to table since it fits perfectly my description.

The huge historical mass of information I have built up is behind the real reason for the sword being carried ... what I have done is to prove the authenticity of the artist who has captured long haired tribals at Muscat... as known and titled Guards of The Immam of Muscat in 1841. I have illustrated similar tribals in the form of Ibn Gabaisha and bin Kabina who look remarkable similar in 1950. I therefor think that the illustrated sketch is authentic but of course it cannot be relied upon to speak... Its just a sketch.

I interpret it quite differently since I know that this sword is only and was only for Pageants and as described in the national archives and Museums as such. Not for fighting ... Pageants only. Quite rightly it is shown on guards of the Immam at Muscat. What is not shown are other blades or spears and other guns save what we see. No other written detail is available.

You are not the first to be hoodwinked by this sword... but by only taking it on at face value you have automatically fallen into the same trap as the 19th C. European visitors did.. into thinking like them, that this was a battle sword. It's not. It was only for Pageants.

Compouned in that mistake you have mistaken a recent rehilt as a battle sword version of this Pageantry item, however, that is shown as a souk mixture of a Red Sea Variant, tang extension, Omani scabbard and Omani long hilt. A (from) 1970 Muttrah Special.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ You suppose an awful lot from a sketch.

Hello.

No more than yourself using the drawing as supporting documentation for the sword being a dance sword and carried by guards....makes no sense

I must add, hence the personal invitation to attend a visit, that nothing is being taken at face value but as detailed examination of what I have here and others handled...the only hoodwinking going on is the absolute belief they do not exisit from antiquity

I and others I know have failed to be convinced with such little concrete evidence being bought to the table and resources out side of your country only now being looked in to but from afar. I do not need to travel, I have seen the rubbish from the souks and yourself being asked, have not yet bought a creadible dressed up souk sword to look like one from the past, because there are so many things they can not do to make this happen to support your claims.

I can't fault your passion and faith but the subject should have been explored a lot more and with concrete evidience after examing a 100 or more swords in and out side of your country before claiming absolutely what you do.

Peace brother

Gavin

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim, your tone is a little strange. Perhaps you are taking this all a bit too personally for a friendly forum discussion.

para 1... a peculiar link between apparent repetition and no point in posting which I cannot fathom...and coupled to inquiries at the museum?..I am unable to unravel that.

There's nothing complex or peculiar here. There are several points of view that have been presented in this thread, there is a lot of repetition in the presentation of those views. I've posted my views at this time, I see no reason to do it constantly. Personally, I'll be interested to continue the discussion when there's something else on the table - such as pieces with provenance or some of the museum documentation you've mentioned in the past.

para 2... Freeze? Are you suggesting that the design of the Omani Dancing Sword has changed since its inception in 1744? No it hasn't. Do you imagine that there is a 1744 document waiting to be discovered perhaps next to the original dancing sword in some museum? No there isn't.

The way to establish what has or hasn't changed is via pieces with provenance, period artwork or illustrations. For example you recent post with illustrations dated to 1840 at least show the state of the hilt style at that date. That's a great piece of evidence with an associated date.

I am simply curious to see pieces with provenance and associated dates for the same reason. I have no idea what museum documentation you have access to, how can I until you present it.

para 3...I am amazed that you think there is some odd linkage between blade marks locally applied and dancing sword design. There are some blade marks with stars on them ... does that imply they went to the moon?

We've had serious, perhaps even fruitful exchanges about this in the past, it's a pity you don't seem to want to continue that judging by your last comment. However perhaps it was intended as humor in which case I can only say... I'm surprised you're amazed.

In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. Similarly the use of triple fuller and single patterns of a length that corresponds broadly to similar European blades found elsewhere in large numbers at a similar time period is not something that I consider coincidence. Particularly when the primary sword form in use before the inception of this design by and large is flat without fullers.

Obviously this is something that we don't and probably won't agree on. A differing point of view...

Lastly your suggestion that readers will make up their minds and seemingly placed as The Sword of Damacles over my posts is just simply rediculous.. This forum, in hammering out the facts, expects disagreement and at times heated debate and generally over the hot anvil of discussion takes no heed of whether readers agree or not. This post is alive and kicking and the twists and turns encountered have no place in whether people agree or don't. If they don't agree the rules are simple; let them either do nothing or join the debate! The ink is free !!

Nothing has been placed over your head and I think it's a pity you've chosen to interpret a single phrase in this manner. My last post on this thread pointed out differing viewpoints had been presented. Everyone is free to assess what is written here and reach their own conclusion.

Some may choose to engage with your posted material, as I do on occasion, others may not.

That of course has no influence on the validity of the content you post - however a lack of response does not imply you are correct simply because nobody has bothered to post a rebuttal. As far as I'm concerned, the more participants the merrier.

There are parts of what you present that I find intriguing and raise interesting questions, parts where I disagree with your conclusions and parts where I appreciate the fascinating insight into the weapons of Oman you share. Your passion is to be commended.

All the best,
Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim, your tone is a little strange. Perhaps you are taking this all a bit too personally for a friendly forum discussion.



There's nothing complex or peculiar here. There are several points of view that have been presented in this thread, there is a lot of repetition in the presentation of those views. I've posted my views at this time, I see no reason to do it constantly. Personally, I'll be interested to continue the discussion when there's something else on the table - such as pieces with provenance or some of the museum documentation you've mentioned in the past.



The way to establish what has or hasn't changed is via pieces with provenance, period artwork or illustrations. For example you recent post with illustrations dated to 1840 at least show the state of the hilt style at that date. That's a great piece of evidence with an associated date.

I am simply curious to see pieces with provenance and associated dates for the same reason. I have no idea what museum documentation you have access to, how can I until you present it.



We've had serious, perhaps even fruitful exchanges about this in the past, it's a pity you don't seem to want to continue that judging by your last comment. However perhaps it was intended as humor in which case I can only say... I'm surprised you're amazed.

In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. Similarly the use of triple fuller and single patterns of a length that corresponds broadly to similar European blades found elsewhere in large numbers at a similar time period is not something that I consider coincidence. Particularly when the primary sword form in use before the inception of this design by and large is flat without fullers.

Obviously this is something that we don't and probably won't agree on. A differing point of view...



Nothing has been placed over your head and I think it's a pity you've chosen to interpret a single phrase in this manner. My last post on this thread pointed out differing viewpoints had been presented. Everyone is free to assess what is written here and reach their own conclusion.

Some may choose to engage with your posted material, as I do on occasion, others may not.

That of course has no influence on the validity of the content you post - however a lack of response does not imply you are correct simply because nobody has bothered to post a rebuttal. As far as I'm concerned, the more participants the merrier.

There are parts of what you present that I find intriguing and raise interesting questions, parts where I disagree with your conclusions and parts where I appreciate the fascinating insight into the weapons of Oman you share. Your passion is to be commended.

All the best,
Iain

Salaams Iain, Your post has interesting points which I don't disagree with in the least... for example In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. I agree with that... but I don't see the blades as having been made in Europe and imported... in fact I see the blades as having been entirely concocted and designed for and by the new Dynasty in 1744.

Fullering certainly made the blades lighter and more flexible but I have no idea where the principle was invented or which direction it came from onto this flexi blade form. If I knew which Omani sword came first ... The Kattara(curved) or The Sayf(straight)... I may be able to answer that. I think there are a few examples of fullers in the old Omani battle sword... but again I need to check. At any rate I have just read of Mamluke swords see a part of the document of Pisanellos Hat which for reference is, in part, at note below which has blades with grooves inserted much earlier. Still it's interesting since as you indicate a possible European link that could be the case in terms of the fullers or home grown or transmitted from Timurid/Ottoman or other Islamic Dynastic forms.

On the point of flat blades ... The Old Omani Battle Sword is, however, not flat. It has what I would describe an aircraft wing shape; ovoid and quite thick in the middle. It appears to be designed for slashing and chopping. That, moreover, is another subject covered over on "The Omani Battle Sword" thread...but which I am pleased to discus here linked as it is with the dancing sword.

No Iain! you are indeed a sword expert in your own right and any comments I make which may appear "sordid" (scuse pun) are meant only in the context of the short jibe ... "The parry"... oft used in swordsmanship and even more so in written exchanges... No harm meant at all... Nice to have your comments on board even if you don't yet agree...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


From Pisanellos Hat.

Note; 18. SABER
Ottoman, late 15th century(?)

Topkapı Sarayı Müzesi, inv. no. 1/397.
DESCRIPTION:
The grip is of wood covered with black leather inclined towards the cutting edge of the blade and with a flat topped pommel cap of brass below which is a large finger rest. The guard is of steel with quillons that flair very slightly towards their flat tips, the sides of the pierced quillons are decorated with gold inlaid panels forming circles and rectangles, inside the rectangles are steel balls. The large wide blade of steel is single edged with a double edged
section towards its point. It has two shallow grooves along its length and a series of thin grooves running along middle of the top side terminating before the double edged section and is engraved on the right side with a roundel containing an Arabic inscriptions in a cursive script, and before the grooves a large palmette form. The scabbard is of wood covered with leather with steel mounts of the bar and fan clamp type.
NOTES:
Cemal Arseven attributed this saber to Mehmed I but his reasons for doing so are unclear. This is one of a small group of sabers with wide blades deeply engraved with inscriptions and floral forms that contrast with a series of delicately chiseled grooves. Many of the other sabers in the group have large spear shape quillon tips in a distinctly Ottoman style.The deeply engraved fleshy leaf forms on one example suggest that the craftsman
was inspired by Eastern Anatolian carving such as on the facade of the mosque at Divriªi dated 1228-29. Although the carved palmette forms on the blade suggest a Timurid origin, this and the other sabers of the same type were probably produced in an Ottoman workshop.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain, Your post has interesting points which I don't disagree with in the least... for example In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. I agree with that... but I don't see the blades as having been made in Europe and imported... in fact I see the blades as having been entirely concocted and designed for and by the new Dynasty in 1744.

I don't think the extremely flexible examples are made in Europe, quite the contrary. However, so far I have not seen a flexible blade example exhibiting any great age. This is partially why I've harped on provenance so much.

Fullering certainly made the blades lighter and more flexible but I have no idea where the principle was invented or which direction it came from onto this flexi blade form. If I knew which Omani sword came first ... The Kattara(curved) or The Sayf(straight)... I may be able to answer that. I think there are a few examples of fullers in the old Omani battle sword... but again I need to check. At any rate I have just read of Mamluke swords see a part of the document of Pisanellos Hat which for reference is, in part, at note below which has blades with grooves inserted much earlier. Still it's interesting since as you indicate a possible European link that could be the case in terms of the fullers or home grown or transmitted from Timurid/Ottoman or other Islamic Dynastic forms.

On the point of flat blades ... The Old Omani Battle Sword is, however, not flat. It has what I would describe an aircraft wing shape; ovoid and quite thick in the middle. It appears to be designed for slashing and chopping. That, moreover, is another subject covered over on "The Omani Battle Sword" thread...but which I am pleased to discus here linked as it is with the dancing sword.

Fullers themselves are of course not an indication of European influence, but the configuration, use of marks and basic dimensions of the blades can be.

By flat I meant without fullers. But well noted on the slight midrib some exhibit.

No Iain! you are indeed a sword expert in your own right and any comments I make which may appear "sordid" (scuse pun) are meant only in the context of the short jibe ... "The parry"... oft used in swordsmanship and even more so in written exchanges... No harm meant at all... Nice to have your comments on board even if you don't yet agree...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Glad to hear it, communication in a virtual format is always a tad frustrating but I'm glad to see we are back to business as usual.

I've got a few inquiries going on for you regarding some swords in European collections, if anything interesting turns up I'll post it here.

All the best,
iain