The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Regarding the curved 'kattara' (using the generally held term for Omani swords with cylindrical hilt), these I think would be likely to have evolved from these type hilts being placed on 'trade' or perhaps even 'surplus' European blades entering Omani trade sphere. This would most likely have occurred post the hypothetical mid 18th century benchmark for these type hilts.

While the open, guardless hilt is certainly not a unique characteristic of course, and is well known in swords such as the shashka In Central Asia and certain other instances. Obviously we cannot arbitrarily presume influences of these toward the broadsword with such hilt which became known in association with these pageantry events mid18th century, but by the same token cannot ignore the potential.

It would seem to me that these style hilts becoming popularized in these clearly very important traditional events might be adopted into actual weapons intended for regular military use. The 'cross over' of weapons commonly held to be 'non combat' ceremonial or dress weapons in many cases fail to recognize that often such weapons, like the smallsword and other military officers swords are in fact sully capable of deadly use.

Also, many true combat level arms are used in various traditional ceremonies, with sword dances in Scotland, India, Africa, and many other cases. Despite use of combat weapons in these, the production of less formidable blades on similiar hilt forms was common as well as the continuation of these kinds of ceremonies sometimes called for less potential for accidental harm to participants.

Returning to the original question of the curved blades, I think as noted these probably were the result of availability of these blades in the trade spheres and preferences of local consumers. Obviously the sabre had become highly favored throughout Arabia as well as many of the cultural spheres, and even in North Africa, where broadswords typically reigned supreme from the Sudan into Saharan regions...sabres such as the Manding form in Mali and contiguous areas and that of Tuareg regions termed 'aljuinar' were present by the 19th century.
As with the Manding swords, it seems most of the sabre blades were German with names like FW Holler and some French examples, but I have seen even British blades with MOLE.

I have often noticed and often mentioned that it would seem there are compelling similarities between the Manding sabres and their open cylindrical hilts and the Omani hilts. The interesting hilt style is of course quite contrary to the typical crossguard form hilts of takouba and kaskara as well as the military hilts of the sabres which often provided curved blades.
This has always led me to the well established connection with these Saharan regions via caravan routes into eastern Africa and ultimately Zanzibar, where the Omani Sultanate thrived in trade.

When the other broadsword with cylindrical hilt, the Maasai 'seme' comes to mind, it becomes even more tempting to consider these routes of diffusion for these type hilts. The availability and increased favor of the sabre may well have carried across these same routes, and conversely toward Oman, in these 19th century times.

Again, all admittedly speculation, however with somewhat compelling plausibility I would think. Hopefully I have not digressed too much in trying to offer my views.

Salaams Jim ~ Thank you for your detailed post. Not withstanding the situation regarding The Omani Dancing Sword I found your comments well placed about the curved weapon ~ it begs the question where/when did the long Omani Hilt originate? Which sword was first on the scene?; The Dancing Sword of 1744 or the Curved Kattarah? Is it possible that they arrived at the same time?

It would be plausible to suppose that the Mandingo long hilt transmitted onto a long Omani hilt form via a slavers sword pre 1744 and became the accepted Omani Longhilt but there is not enough evidence yet... In fact the timings are interesting since if the form suddenly appeared direct from Mandingo to Omani Dancing sword it could be that it was then transmitted onto the curved Kattarah style...in 1744... so we are in full circle.

I continue to look at blades and hope to get in again to the Museums in Muscat to see if the dates can be separated. It would be nice to know. Does it make any diffrence to the connundrum about the odd stiff blades on Omani Longhilts? I'm not sure.

I was lucky enough to have Bin Gabaishas son (Bin Gabaisha of Thesiger fame) over this evening for a chat and he reports his father is alive and well and still buying and selling camels in the UAE. It struck me that the photo of Bin Gabaisha and bin Gabina looked similar to a group sketch of Omani tribal infantry I saw recently and I was going to put the two together for comparison. I digress....

The date of 1744 seems pretty well cemented in by the Museums and is the official start date of the Bussaidi Dynasty... thus the 1744 is taken as the beginning of the Dancing Sword.

I don't believe that the open connical flat hilt is in any way related to other swords without a cross guard except perhaps the Mandingo. It seems quite clear that the dancer was just for pageants and funoon activity.. though the few visitors to Oman in the 19th C. have commented on the weapon and the swordsmen; I think this is a case of mistaken identity... they looked fierce... the swords looked real... but were only for the traditions.

I see the straight dancing sword as carried by tribal infantry as part of their equipment but only as a badge of office or identity as Omani Guards/Military and for applauding the Royalty/ Bussaidi Dynasty.. not for use as weapons. The specifics are precise in this regard... see #1 for the comparison in design and the fact that the Terrs was awarded directly linking the two swords together...and both razor sharp on both edges, round tipped and with the Terrs Shield.

The question of a rigid stiff blade is rejected since the line of such weapons has been identified as souk made/ modified since 1970. It seems logical that anyone who wants to prove otherwise that swords of this nature existed prior to that need only prove that earlier provenance. I tried but simply couldn't.. because they only appeared after that date in the structure I have described from Red Sea Blades.

Would I otherwise suggest that there was no such thing ? Perhaps I should have said.."The Omani fighting straight sword based upon the dancing sword but with a stiff blade is an Omani fighting sword".... That would be completely untrue !

Where does a blade, imported from Red Sea regions, which has been tang extended, and fitted up with an Omani long hilt, after 1970, in Muttrah, deliberately for tourists fit? Is it a real Omani sword, after all it was made in Oman (partly) ? The curved Kattarah has often an imported Euroblade with an Omani Hilt ... that's an Omani sword so why isn't this one? I've made the comparison before but if a Japanese blade is fitted to a Norwegian hilt in the same time frame is it a Norwegian sword?

It is for this reason that I categorise the stiff bladed version as a fake.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The date of 1744 seems pretty well cemented in by the Museums and is the official start date of the Bussaidi Dynasty... thus the 1744 is taken as the beginning of the Dancing Sword.

Yet without a single piece dated to this period (at least that I can recall popping up on these myriad threads about the type) it is rather difficult to say what it looked like no? Surely for a sword designed as an icon something from the 18th century attributed to a particular person should at least be around?

Frankly I can't recall exactly what the museum told you, perhaps you can re-link the post where you detailed that? It didn't come up on a search easily.

The question of a rigid stiff blade is rejected since the line of such weapons has been identified as souk made/ modified since 1970. It seems logical that anyone who wants to prove otherwise that swords of this nature existed prior to that need only prove that earlier provenance. I tried but simply couldn't.. because they only appeared after that date in the structure I have described from Red Sea Blades.

Perhaps this would be better phrased that you have identified blades of this nature being made recently. However, this does not categorically rule out older combinations of the same predating the timeline you've given (1970).

You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century.

Since we haven't seen a single 19th century piece with provenance of ANY style (at least none when I asked about it!) regarding the straight bladed form, this all seems rather hasty.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Yet without a single piece dated to this period (at least that I can recall popping up on these myriad threads about the type) it is rather difficult to say what it looked like no? Surely for a sword designed as an icon something from the 18th century attributed to a particular person should at least be around?

Frankly I can't recall exactly what the museum told you, perhaps you can re-link the post where you detailed that? It didn't come up on a search easily.



Perhaps this would be better phrased that you have identified blades of this nature being made recently. However, this does not categorically rule out older combinations of the same predating the timeline you've given (1970).

You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century.

Since we haven't seen a single 19th century piece with provenance of ANY style (at least none when I asked about it!) regarding the straight bladed form, this all seems rather hasty.

Salaams Iain, Did you just say Hasty? The Museum statements confirm the sword as a dancing sword only. I cant recall where it is in the Myriad either but its not a problem as I have the documents here... and I am in the National Museum again this week on research. The Omani Dancing Sword was instigated by the Bussaidi Dynasty in or about 1744 at the beginning of the Dynasty and it is still used for the same thing today... Pageant march past mimic fighting and Traditions only... see funoon.

The notion that there is another straight stiff fighting version on a long hilt is without substance and may be confused by the influx of Red Sea variants cross mounted onto Omani Long Hilts... since 1970.

(You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century). Can you tell me where I said that please??

I assume that the theory behind the 1744 dancing sword is now generally accepted and that insofar as the dancing sword is concerned it ... the straight flexible blade was never used in fighting... and only for Pageants.

However regarding the strange stiff sword which I have described as from the Red Sea regions there is some question? and so that when I am in the Museum I can have that verified and at the same time I can get some old blade shots.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain, Did you just say Hasty? The Museum statements confirm the sword as a dancing sword only. I cant recall where it is in the Myriad either but its not a problem as I have the documents here... and I am in the National Museum again this week on research. The Omani Dancing Sword was instigated by the Bussaidi Dynasty in or about 1744 at the beginning of the Dynasty and it is still used for the same thing today... Pageant march past mimic fighting and Traditions only... see funoon.

Whatever documentation you have - as time allows it would be interesting to see. I assume it would require some translation. But we have a few Arabic speaking members, so perhaps you could scan and share originals.

(You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century). Can you tell me where I said that please??

I was paraphrasing, see post #72 of yours, the jist being your focus is on research conducted within Oman.

I assume that the theory behind the 1744 dancing sword is now generally accepted and that insofar as the dancing sword is concerned it ... the straight flexible blade was never used in fighting... and only for Pageants.

However regarding the strange stiff sword which I have described as from the Red Sea regions there is some question? and so that when I am in the Museum I can have that verified and at the same time I can get some old blade shots.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

It's an interesting theory, I'm not involved enough around these particular weapons to judge it as a whole. It's not my field, still I enjoy occasionally commenting on these threads. Personally I think there's still some logical gaps missing within it which I've mentioned before, but just in case the museum visit can answer a few of them, off the top of my head...

1. A reason why the "dance sword" happens to use blade forms that closely mirror the proportion and design (fullers and geometry) of European blades.

2. As above but goes for blade marks.

These really are two points I've never felt there was a satisfactory answer for in your theory, suddenly there's a shift from a fighting weapon that happens to have wider, shorter, flat blades, to a dance only item that somehow manages to have an almost identical form and set of features to European blades seen elsewhere in the region...

All the best,
Iain

[Gavin Nugent]

An expanation of item two in Ricks presentation of rare swords would be interesting;

http://www.vikingsword.com/library/r...ldomwootz1.pdf

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

An expanation of item two in Ricks presentation of rare swords would be interesting;

http://www.vikingsword.com/library/r...ldomwootz1.pdf

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Since you are asking me to explain I shall indeed respond to your request.

First this is not technically an Omani Kattara since it is straight thus it would be (if it were real) be an Omani Sayf (or Saif).

Secondly as it clearly states there is a certain amount of uncertainty by the author ..well placed in my opinion about this weapon...and since it appears to be a complete one off...no others appear to exist...what are we actually viewing here?

This is a non flexible (I assume) thick, pointed, wootz blade on an Omani long hilt. It is configured to look like an Omani 1744 design dancing sword. Does this ring a bell with you?

I have seen blades like this being lined up for workshop conversion in Muttrah... somewhere I have a photo of one similar...and I will dig it up. and another with the running wolf on it... same sort of blade.

Apply the well tested rule... Does it look right Wootz, Pointed, and thick down the spine without fullers ? and the main rule about dancing swords...does it bend ?...So we know its not an Omani Dancing Sword so what is it?

I suspect this is an imported blade (OF EXCELLENT PRIOR FIGHTING PROWESS) rehilted in Muscat after 1970.

So what do you think it is ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

I think it is a sword


Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Whatever documentation you have - as time allows it would be interesting to see. I assume it would require some translation. But we have a few Arabic speaking members, so perhaps you could scan and share originals.




I was paraphrasing, see post #72 of yours, the jist being your focus is on research conducted within Oman.




It's an interesting theory, I'm not involved enough around these particular weapons to judge it as a whole. It's not my field, still I enjoy occasionally commenting on these threads. Personally I think there's still some logical gaps missing within it which I've mentioned before, but just in case the museum visit can answer a few of them, off the top of my head...

1. A reason why the "dance sword" happens to use blade forms that closely mirror the proportion and design (fullers and geometry) of European blades.

2. As above but goes for blade marks.

These really are two points I've never felt there was a satisfactory answer for in your theory, suddenly there's a shift from a fighting weapon that happens to have wider, shorter, flat blades, to a dance only item that somehow manages to have an almost identical form and set of features to European blades seen elsewhere in the region...

All the best,
Iain

Salaams Iain ~ Last point first... but thank you for your input and I have a clear mandate ahead to really try to access the Museums data banks to verify the points I have already made and which is generally proven in their record at the National Archives and in documentation I already hold. Regarding the sudden shift from fighting weapon to dance item...Actually there was no sudden shift in my perception .. but what I did was to split the two weapons onto separate threads since they are of very different concepts and make up... though cleverly linked in that the two are sharp on both sides and round tipped and the Terrs Shield was given to both weapons. Much of the background is on Kattara for Comments but I felt each sword needed its own space. There was no sudden shift at the time it changed in Oman...The shift happened in 1744..when the dancing sword materialised. It can be thought of as The Bussaidi Dynasty Sword. You will see that I have compared the two swords and it is plausible that the sharp two edged weapon with the round tip style was consulted and transfered to the dancing sword along with the Terrs Shield...

Your next point about likeness to European sword style intrigues me...I mean what is a sword... Its a long knife...etc etc how many variations are there on the basic form? This is not, however, a copy of a European sword nor is it an imported dancing blade from Europe but is a product of local manufacture. The odd thing about the dancing blade is its flexibility... It bends nearly double easily. Its got a flat spatulate round tip. It has one or three fullers of varying length some the entire length of the sword. Its got a weird hilt almost more Japanese looking than European...(though likely to have Mandingo influence) Non of the blade marks are done in Europe... all the ones I've ever seen were done here and are Islamic, British Raj, Persian, or very rough copies of the wolf mark...locally applied.. The Old Omani Battle Sword wasn't taken from a European style... but it looks similar though you could argue that the Omanis copied the Abbasiid and the Abbasiid took their design from the Greek etc etc ...what makes you think this is a European design ? because it looks like it?...They (the dancing Swords) don't handle like European Swords. In fact to get a feel for balance they have to be practiced with using the Terrs Shield ... It really is a remarkably different feeling.

Why was it not simply an extended flexible version of the Old Omani Battle Sword on a long hilt?

Lastly I see you quote of something I didnt say ... and out of context ... No I certainly didn't say that Iain...but to close I will attempt to get a reasonable Museum document covering what I have already reported.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Your next point about likeness to European sword style intrigues me...I mean what is a sword... Its a long knife...etc etc how many variations are there on the basic form? This is not, however, a copy of a European sword nor is it an imported dancing blade from Europe but is a product of local manufacture. The odd thing about the dancing blade is its flexibility... It bends nearly double easily. Its got a flat spatulate round tip. It has one or three fullers of varying length some the entire length of the sword. Its got a weird hilt almost more Japanese looking than European...(though likely to have Mandingo influence) Non of the blade marks are done in Europe... all the ones I've ever seen were done here and are Islamic, British Raj, Persian, or very rough copies of the wolf mark...locally applied.. The Old Omani Battle Sword wasn't taken from a European style... but it looks similar though you could argue that the Omanis copied the Abbasiid and the Abbasiid took their design from the Greek etc etc ...what makes you think this is a European design ? because it looks like it?...They (the dancing Swords) don't handle like European Swords. In fact to get a feel for balance they have to be practiced with using the Terrs Shield ... It really is a remarkably different feeling.

Why was it not simply an extended flexible version of the Old Omani Battle Sword on a long hilt?

I can't make things much clearer, if the extended length, fullering and introduction of blade markings on the "dance sword" doesn't raise some questions for you then there's really not much to discuss here... If you think all this came about without outside influence from a sword that looks quite dissimilar... then I really see no point in taking this further.

Lastly I see you quote of something I didnt say ... and out of context ... No I certainly didn't say that Iain...but to close I will attempt to get a reasonable Museum document covering what I have already reported.

Mentioning the jist of a previous post of yours on the same thread regarding the exact same topic (pieces with provenance) is hardly out of context. You and I have managed to have friendly exchanges in the past, I see no reason for that to change.

The question remains then, have you pursue the provenance of pieces held within European museum collections?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

I can't make things much clearer, if the extended length, fullering and introduction of blade markings on the "dance sword" doesn't raise some questions for you then there's really not much to discuss here... If you think all this came about without outside influence from a sword that looks quite dissimilar... then I really see no point in taking this further.



Mentioning the jist of a previous post of yours on the same thread regarding the exact same topic (pieces with provenance) is hardly out of context. You and I have managed to have friendly exchanges in the past, I see no reason for that to change.

The question remains then, have you pursue the provenance of pieces held within European museum collections?

Of course I have not persued the Omani Dancing Sword in European collections why on eaqrth would I do a thing like that... I'm in Oman researching it. The dancing sword isnt holding some hidden European clue... Its an Omani invention... if it was Belgian or French believe me I would be the first to say so...but its clearly not. This is a 1744 design encompassing some factors of the Old Omani Battle Sword and the whims of whoever finally decided its finished form... I don't think a European sword has been near the design of this sword. It's completely different. Why are you hung up on a European design... Its Omani...

This is not the first time you have spoken about European blade marks on these swords... I've seen hundreds and hundreds of these swords...no European blade marks ...rough copies yes a few... mainly stamped are Islamic, Persian and British Raj India marks and a few rough wolf marks clearly locally done... where's the link in that...?

Might you be trying to resurect that European blades as having been imported for Omani Dancing Sword Blades?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.