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#1 |
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I don't really feel like diving into all this again, but I'd be curious Ibrahiim, if you've come across a provenanced 19th century, or earlier, dance version (i.e. super flexi blade). By provenance I mean a sword that has not been rehilted or tampered with and has a firm, documented collection date. in the 1800s or earlier.
I think it would be interesting to see. |
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#2 | |
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Salaams Iain, The only likely source of that is the National Museum which I shall try to access shortly. The other document which probably exists in some far flung corner of the Museum admin section would be the signed order for the actual Dancing Sword being brought into play in 1744... That being the perfect solution I can wager straight away that perhaps neither exist ! Fine dancing swords are in private hands since they are part of an Omani Families Heirloom...and like the Museum quest it is on my list. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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#3 |
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Hi Ibrahiim, I would be very surprised if some examples did not end up in European collections during the 19th century. That is perhaps a more likely avenue to have properly dated items with provenance.
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#4 | |
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Salaams Iain~ Im not about to argue that point, however, it seems to me that few Europeans if any have swords from 19th C. Oman which was in decline and largely side stepped because of the Suez canal etc. I am not particularly well positioned either to view possible European collections but I am astride the situation here in Oman. It is, therefor, here that I shall research. It should be noted that those in favour of an old dancing sword used for fighting may be trying to push the envelope back from the 1970 rehilted lineage to suggest a thicker stiff bladed sword of earlier provenance... when in fact no such weapon exists... save for the fake, rehilted, Red Sea variants already outlined. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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#5 | ||
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Perhaps you'll be able to find that locally, but I'll be interested about any dated provenance. Quote:
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#6 | |
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The swords as a type was of EU form shaved within an inch of its life through the top 6-8 inches. Gavin |
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#7 | |
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And therein lies the problem I think, there's a few folks around here who've had or have swords they'd attribute to the 19th century and on the other side we've got someone who's aware of similar items still being made today. A few examples with provenance won't answer all the questions about each individual sword that comes up for discussion, but would at least provide a baseline for what's possible versus the current ideas being put forth in this thread about tourist weapons and fakes. Since there's a lack of pictorial and archaeological evidence either way for this, really the only thing will be items with collection dates or period photos that clearly show blades. Ibrahiim, have you ever been to the Bait Al Zubair museum? They apparently have a sword on display with a 17th century Portuguese blade. Not sure of the mounts but it could be interesting. |
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#8 |
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I would like to say that it has been most intesting to see this debate/discussion unfold, and while there aeem to have been a degree of 'loggerheads' etc. everyone seems to have maintained a good level of courtesy in interaction. Most interesting is the nature of the weapons which are the focus here.
If I may add some thoughts and personal experience which though limited, might add a little perspective. I would clarify, as this is a 'discussion' in my view I do not take 'sides' ![]() When I first acquired one of this long cylinder hilt Omani swords, it seems it was around 1994-5 , around the time Robert Elgood published "Arms and Armour of Arabia". At this time, these were still considered remarkably rare, and thier appearance was even rarer in catalogs or auctions. I recall that the admittedly 'wreck' of a 'kattara' I acquired was considered a bit of conquest in the limited collecting circles in which I was involved. With Elgoods book, we knew of these forms, and the swords referred to in these threads as 'battle swords' from factions in Nizwa were must sought as rare early to even 'ancient' prototypes for the kattara. They were almost invariably misidentified accordingly, as medieval etc. As has been often the case, in a short time more of the cylinder hilts began to occur in markets, and great excitement grew when several of the 'old' type kattara appeared. As has been noted, Oman has not been a particularly open place to the west until relatively recent years. Presumably that degree of opening up allowed for more examples to enter collectibles venues. It would seem to me that kattara, while certainly known of, in the 19th century, were not especially avaliable in the typical colonial 'tourist' and souvenier centers of North Africa, Arabia and Red Sea areas. What seems to be known of them, as seen with the references by Auguste Demmin (1867) and subsequently copied by Burton (1884), these cylinder hilts appear to have been regarded as from Zanzibar. That is reflected in these references in drawings, and while Oman itself was effectively 'closed', the bustling entrepot of Zanzibar was not, but it was a Sultanate of Oman. Clearly the Zanzibar attribution resulted, and most notably, the limited data regarding these weapons has remained largely stagnant until Elgood in 1994. The ceremonial function of these cylindrical hilt swords is well established, but it would seem that thier use in form as battle swords in Muscati circumstances was also a case in degree in the 19th century. It also seems that they were worn in more ostentatious dress as a status symbol and mark of prestige by the burgeoning ranks of merchants from Oman (Muscat as I understand), while interior Nizwa maintained thier traditional forms. It does not seem particularly remarkable that various trade blades from German and other sources would have entered Omani armouries, and that their armourers would have copied markings etc just as in other colonial or native settings. That the cottage industry of commercially producing these swords not only for ceremonial purposes, but for tourist ('collecting') venues also does not seem remarkable. It is clear that the early days of these becoming available in limited degree opened doors for the usual dealer opportunities, which became exploited in many cases as is typically the case with arms antiquities. I think the open look into these kinds of circumstances that has been revealed in these pages is wonderfully helpful to collectors, however I am not sure that these weapons as types can be categorically classified without individual evalution of each one on its own merits. End of solilioquy ![]() |
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#9 | |
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Salaams Jim, Thank you for your post which I feel well underlines the cleansing humility about doubt in the matter of The Dancing Sword. I have to say that one part of the puzzle I cannot get to the root of, is the date of appearance of the Kattara; The Curved Omani Sword, though, incidentally more often seen with a European blade..Did this appear before or after the Straight Omani Dancing Sword ?.. whose known birthdate is 1744 at the outset of the Bussaidi Dynasty. Naturally, part of the question is "where did the long Omani hilt come from" ? Which sword/thus which hilt came first? I have been in most of the Museums, though, Bait Zubair not yet but friends have seen the exhibits, however, the Portuguese oddity is one blade I would like to look at and to ask where did it appear from and when? Portuguese Swords tended to be Rapier style... or at least the few I have owned were... I would like to examine any broadsword of that period pre 1650 in Muscat museums...though I am aware of certain exhibits that have a shall we say "dubious recent history". It would indeed be odd to discover a Portuguese blade of pre 1650 vintage on a post 1744 hilt !! but I suspect that is all it will be. ![]() Meanwhile I continue to help build a strong reference library on this subject and I believe we are healthier for it. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi |
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#10 | |
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Hopefully you can visit the museum in the near future and clear this up, I'm quite a few folks would be curious to see this particular sword. |
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#11 | |
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Salaams Iain... Of the half dozen or so scenarios that is one of them...I can only speculate on the potential range of variations since if the sword was left behind/captured when the Portuguese left we are talking about 1650. That puts the long hilt and the dancing sword out of sight. If the blade was slapped onto an Omani Longhilt later it raises many questions and if it was mounted post 1970 then it's a fake by definition. Surprisingly the Richardson and Dorr team included a few swords from that collection in their book but they are Shamshiirs..one with a 18th C. German blade ... I shall visit there soon but I know they are camera allergenic ! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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#12 | |
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Regarding the curved 'kattara' (using the generally held term for Omani swords with cylindrical hilt), these I think would be likely to have evolved from these type hilts being placed on 'trade' or perhaps even 'surplus' European blades entering Omani trade sphere. This would most likely have occurred post the hypothetical mid 18th century benchmark for these type hilts. While the open, guardless hilt is certainly not a unique characteristic of course, and is well known in swords such as the shashka In Central Asia and certain other instances. Obviously we cannot arbitrarily presume influences of these toward the broadsword with such hilt which became known in association with these pageantry events mid18th century, but by the same token cannot ignore the potential. It would seem to me that these style hilts becoming popularized in these clearly very important traditional events might be adopted into actual weapons intended for regular military use. The 'cross over' of weapons commonly held to be 'non combat' ceremonial or dress weapons in many cases fail to recognize that often such weapons, like the smallsword and other military officers swords are in fact sully capable of deadly use. Also, many true combat level arms are used in various traditional ceremonies, with sword dances in Scotland, India, Africa, and many other cases. Despite use of combat weapons in these, the production of less formidable blades on similiar hilt forms was common as well as the continuation of these kinds of ceremonies sometimes called for less potential for accidental harm to participants. Returning to the original question of the curved blades, I think as noted these probably were the result of availability of these blades in the trade spheres and preferences of local consumers. Obviously the sabre had become highly favored throughout Arabia as well as many of the cultural spheres, and even in North Africa, where broadswords typically reigned supreme from the Sudan into Saharan regions...sabres such as the Manding form in Mali and contiguous areas and that of Tuareg regions termed 'aljuinar' were present by the 19th century. As with the Manding swords, it seems most of the sabre blades were German with names like FW Holler and some French examples, but I have seen even British blades with MOLE. I have often noticed and often mentioned that it would seem there are compelling similarities between the Manding sabres and their open cylindrical hilts and the Omani hilts. The interesting hilt style is of course quite contrary to the typical crossguard form hilts of takouba and kaskara as well as the military hilts of the sabres which often provided curved blades. This has always led me to the well established connection with these Saharan regions via caravan routes into eastern Africa and ultimately Zanzibar, where the Omani Sultanate thrived in trade. When the other broadsword with cylindrical hilt, the Maasai 'seme' comes to mind, it becomes even more tempting to consider these routes of diffusion for these type hilts. The availability and increased favor of the sabre may well have carried across these same routes, and conversely toward Oman, in these 19th century times. Again, all admittedly speculation, however with somewhat compelling plausibility I would think. Hopefully I have not digressed too much in trying to offer my views. |
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#13 | |
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I should point out that it is not the curved Omani sword at issue here, but the straight fighting bladed Omani hilted sword, about which Gavin and Ibrahiim are at loggerheads. I do not like the word FAKE particularly, but since it has been well used to describe these so-called "nonexistant" swords made by suppliers to the tourist market, then the word should also sit squarely on Khanjars which are being modern made and sold at exhorbitant prices to the unwitting tourist. These also would then be classified as FAKES. |
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#14 | |
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Salaams Jim ~ Thank you for your detailed post. Not withstanding the situation regarding The Omani Dancing Sword I found your comments well placed about the curved weapon ~ it begs the question where/when did the long Omani Hilt originate? Which sword was first on the scene?; The Dancing Sword of 1744 or the Curved Kattarah? Is it possible that they arrived at the same time? It would be plausible to suppose that the Mandingo long hilt transmitted onto a long Omani hilt form via a slavers sword pre 1744 and became the accepted Omani Longhilt but there is not enough evidence yet... In fact the timings are interesting since if the form suddenly appeared direct from Mandingo to Omani Dancing sword it could be that it was then transmitted onto the curved Kattarah style...in 1744... so we are in full circle. I continue to look at blades and hope to get in again to the Museums in Muscat to see if the dates can be separated. It would be nice to know. Does it make any diffrence to the connundrum about the odd stiff blades on Omani Longhilts? I'm not sure. I was lucky enough to have Bin Gabaishas son (Bin Gabaisha of Thesiger fame) over this evening for a chat and he reports his father is alive and well and still buying and selling camels in the UAE. It struck me that the photo of Bin Gabaisha and bin Gabina looked similar to a group sketch of Omani tribal infantry I saw recently and I was going to put the two together for comparison. I digress.... The date of 1744 seems pretty well cemented in by the Museums and is the official start date of the Bussaidi Dynasty... thus the 1744 is taken as the beginning of the Dancing Sword. I don't believe that the open connical flat hilt is in any way related to other swords without a cross guard except perhaps the Mandingo. It seems quite clear that the dancer was just for pageants and funoon activity.. though the few visitors to Oman in the 19th C. have commented on the weapon and the swordsmen; I think this is a case of mistaken identity... they looked fierce... the swords looked real... but were only for the traditions. I see the straight dancing sword as carried by tribal infantry as part of their equipment but only as a badge of office or identity as Omani Guards/Military and for applauding the Royalty/ Bussaidi Dynasty.. not for use as weapons. The specifics are precise in this regard... see #1 for the comparison in design and the fact that the Terrs was awarded directly linking the two swords together...and both razor sharp on both edges, round tipped and with the Terrs Shield. The question of a rigid stiff blade is rejected since the line of such weapons has been identified as souk made/ modified since 1970. It seems logical that anyone who wants to prove otherwise that swords of this nature existed prior to that need only prove that earlier provenance. I tried but simply couldn't.. because they only appeared after that date in the structure I have described from Red Sea Blades. Would I otherwise suggest that there was no such thing ? Perhaps I should have said.."The Omani fighting straight sword based upon the dancing sword but with a stiff blade is an Omani fighting sword".... That would be completely untrue ! ![]() Where does a blade, imported from Red Sea regions, which has been tang extended, and fitted up with an Omani long hilt, after 1970, in Muttrah, deliberately for tourists fit? Is it a real Omani sword, after all it was made in Oman (partly) ? The curved Kattarah has often an imported Euroblade with an Omani Hilt ... that's an Omani sword so why isn't this one? I've made the comparison before but if a Japanese blade is fitted to a Norwegian hilt in the same time frame is it a Norwegian sword? It is for this reason that I categorise the stiff bladed version as a fake. ![]() Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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