The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

The heavy straight bladed Oman long handled sword of Kattara type hilt from aniquity exist, various examples have been viewed and owned by many.

There is no concrete evidence to say that swords with these heavy blades were not used in dance, they probably were used in dance but the point remains these swords are present in the world.

Please make the trip to Australia or England and view first hand antique Oman straight swords with fighting type blades, original items, not tourist swords but swords of antiquity. Find your best fake from the best fake makers and bring it with you to compare these inaccuracies.

Gavin

No. What are owned are traded in blades converted as I have said many times but to apparently no avail. ...read #53 above.

At this point I would suggest you contact the Omani National Museum since it is from there that confirmation must be accepted as I have done... and from the Richardson and Dorr cultural herritage work on same. Not to mention a long and interesting study of more than 3 decades in the subject. No such weapon exists except as described by me; The Omani souk produced weapon cross matched Re Sea Blade and Omani hilt scabbard etc are not classified as Omani Swords because there is no classification for fakes or Tourist Swords.

At this point therefor I decline your offer of me travelling to Australia or England to look at Red Sea examples of fake Omani Swords since I am quite aware of their provenance. You are of course invited to travel yourself and I will show you the Muscat workshop where such switched are still being done, if that is, you are still not convinced by the wealth of information at Museum level here or by the detailed work added by me on Kattara for Comments and on the specific details at The Omani Battle Sword and The Omani Dancing Sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you for your offer.

At this point, I must ask, why would a souk worker take a perfectly good complete with scabbrd antique flexible dance sword from antiquity, with wonderful culturally important fittings, design and artistry and history and being culturally important itself in its complete form, then remove the blade, then somehow fit a thicker fighting type blade in to a scabbard meant for its thinner brother, join the hilt in some manner that does not in any way disturb one ounce of age and patina and sell it as a [????] to tourists....seems rather odd that Omani Souk owners are destroying cultural heritage in an exercise of wasted time and resources when it would be just as easy to sell the original sword...Then what happens to the flexible blade? Does it then get dressed in modern leather, steel and silver of which I only see a couple of in the photos compared to the dozens and dozens of what I'd call beaters in the rest of the photos....

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Thank you for your offer.

At this point, I must ask, why would a souk worker take a perfectly good complete with scabbrd antique flexible dance sword from antiquity, with wonderful culturally important fittings, design and artistry and history and being culturally important itself in its complete form, then remove the blade, then somehow fit a thicker fighting type blade in to a scabbard meant for its thinner brother, join the hilt in some manner that does not in any way disturb one ounce of age and patina and sell it as a [????] to tourists....seems rather odd that Omani Souk owners are destroying cultural heritage in an exercise of wasted time and resources when it would be just as easy to sell the original sword...Then what happens to the flexible blade? Does it then get dressed in modern leather, steel and silver of which I only see a couple of in the photos compared to the dozens and dozens of what I'd call beaters in the rest of the photos....

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

In answer to your souk worker question ~I have no idea.. but I think you are arriving at the finished product in the wrong way. Here is how it worked;

1. Blade arrives from Yeman (Sanaa) to souk Muscat circa 1970 or after (not before as there weren't any tourists to speak of before that)
2. Souk shop transfers blade to workshops.
Blade is fitted up, tang extended, and long hilt fitted. .
3. Scabbard is tooled up to suit... including as you point out quite excellent furniture hand tooled leather and silver where required. Page 454 of Richardson and Dorr has metalwork such as yours you showed me on e mail..

What you now have is a non flexible Red Sea Blade on an Omani Long Handle heavily camouflaged and looking every inch an Omani Sword which it is not. Sold to a Tourist... and thus can turn up worldwide in this very confusing guise.

I have to say that you are not the first specialist in swords to have been misled by the Swords of Oman. Many 19TH C visitors made similar mistakes which because of the written word have become concreted in as fact when they aren't true at all.. viz;

1878 Mr Geary, Times of India...Muscat ..Quote" A favourite weapon is a straight broad two handed sword; the sweep of which would take off a mans thigh or even cut him in two at the waist. The swordsmen carried over their shoulders small round shields of Rhinosceros hide 8 or 9 inches in diameter. The Arabs of these parts are very formidable swordsmen." Unquote.

James Wellstead visit to tribesmen Jalaan Bani Bu Ali 1835 Quote" The whole of the tribe... of about 250 men assembled for the purpose of exhibiting their dance. They had formed a circle within 5 or 6 of their number now entered. After walking leisurely around for some time, each challenged one of the spectators by striking him gently with the flat of his sword. His adversary immediately leapt forth and feigned combat ensued. They have but two cuts, one directly downwards at the head, and the other horizontally across the legs. They parry each other neither with sword nor shields but avoid the blows by leaping and bounding backwards. The blade of their sword is 3 feet in length, straqight thin double edged and as sharp as a razor''. Unquote.

What Wellstead didnt mention because he probably didn't know... is that there is but one point in the scoring system awarded if the thumb of the shield hand is touched by the flat tip of the oponents sword ... game over.

He also failed to notice that the weapon was not in fact a weapon but a dancing and pageant sword only and since the Mimic Fight is in fact an important part of the pageant The...Hooplah!!...Hey Presto!!...A pageantry Sword. (Pageant = Traditions = The Funoon.)

There are plenty other examples of mistaken identity and it is interesting to see it perpetrated today and in this case by a reasonably recent sword format fetched in by trade and rehilted by enterprising workshops.

Like always ... I am quite prepared to leave the door open for logical arguement and for anyone to dive in and start researching the issue. I continue to search always on the lookout for twists and turns in the story and always ready to re-assess my findings. To date I have seen no evidence to illustrate another avenue on these sword rebuilds but as always I am ready to listen and will follow up on leads which are sensible and constructive. Tilting at Windmills, however, ...I've done that and do not intend to repeat the experience !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.








Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

With respect, and hence my invitation,

A first hand and even scientific analysis of the sword we now discuss will reveal to you that this is now a 43year old souk manufactured sword nor is the delicate string worked leather scabbard....

They do exisit and it is worth the effort to explore the type in detail as they are in my opinion valid and I have ideas as to how and why they are in the world but first the opinion that they do not exist must be passed and explored further to comfirm this for you.

I must also point out, not specific to these swords or the souks spoken of or any other Oman sword type but tang extension has been common for hundereds of years and likely longer throughout Syria and other surronding countries just as base steel tangs and forte's were extended to wootz blades.

Gavin

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I have no idea.. but I think you are arriving at the finished product in the wrong way.
1. Blade arrives in souk Muscat circa 1970 (not before as there werent any tourists to speak of before that)
2. Souk shop transfers blade to workshops.
Blade is fitted up tang extended and long hilt fitted silvered up etc.
3. Scabbard is tooled up to suit... including as you point out quite excellent furniture. Page 454 of Richardson and Dorr has metalwork such as yours you showed me on e mail..
What you now have is a non flexible Red Sea Blade on an Omani Long Handle heavily camouflaged and looking every inch an Omani Sword which it is not. Sold to a Tourist... and thus can turn up worldwide in this very confusing guise.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

With respect, and hence my invitation,

A first hand and even scientific analysis of the sword we now discuss will reveal to you that this is now a 43year old souk manufactured sword nor is the delicate string worked leather scabbard....

They do exisit and it is worth the effort to explore the type in detail as they are in my opinion valid and I have ideas as to how and why they are in the world but first the opinion that they do not exist must be passed and explored further to comfirm this for you.

I must also point out, not specific to these swords or the souks spoken of or any other Oman sword type but tang extension has been common for hundereds of years and likely longer throughout Syria and other surronding countries just as base steel tangs and forte's were extended to wootz blades.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

I dont understand your first paragraph ?


If you have an idea as to how these arrived then lets hear it ! The hot anvil of Forum discussion awaits your findings...

Tang extensions... On Omani longhilts its different... The pommel is part of the tang... On non pommel swords the tang has to be extended and a pommel welded on... then the sword can be hilted like a long Omani hilt... not before.

An example of an extended tang is on file here where you can see an Ethiopian blade fitted with an extended tang and pommel and awaiting its Omani hilt to be fitted in Muscat at Muttrah where they've been doing this for decades ! This blade has come up the same route as yours.. Germany- Ethiopia - Yemen/ Sanaa) -Muscat -Tourist -Worldwide -

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments see post 241.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

I dont understand your first paragraph ?

Ibrahiim,

The paragraph is indicative that if you were here with me examining this sword, in a controlled enviroment you would be convinced to understand it better than your dismissal of it for what it is that you claim from afar.

Equally, if it was put through stringent scientific examination at both superfical level and through scientific disassembly of the sword, it too would convince you of the sword as being of antiquity.

Apart from, and keeping this comment specific to this sword we discuss, hot the type, I have not had you present a comparable example to support your claims, only crude all steel examples and hearsay. Equally for me here, now only having this one example in my hands, I will engage the collection of others as they come to hand to better support the type I suggest.

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

If you have an idea as to how these arrived then lets hear it ! The hot anvil of Forum discussion awaits your findings...

One bridge at a time friend, one bridge at a time.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ Whilst we are waiting for that I should remind Forum of what I mean by Mimic Fighting and March Past using the The Straight Dancing Sword; The Flexible sword invented for the Bussaidi Dynasty in 1744 and still in power thus the sword is still used in a declaration of support in all the related pageants. The March Past by tribal infantry and the Mimic Fight are shown below;see also #38.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

With respect to your updated post from which I drew my quote of yours.

With consideration to a number of things mentioned but the absence of examples collected by these authors, they are but merely telling a story in their journals, not studying specifics of weapons nor collecting them.

This sword of fighting type we discuss between us for example, is certainly a thin sword to coin the phrase presented above by one author...very thin compared to English regulation swords for sure and thin in many respects to Indian swords of the time and period that he was exposed to but a strong well forged fighting type.

As I have mentioned, I have no denial that these swords were used in dance, that is not being questioned, but they did certainly carry heavier fighting blades in this style of sword.


Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

With respect to your updated post from which I drew my quote of yours.

With consideration to a number of things mentioned but the absence of examples collected by these authors, they are but merely telling a story in their journals, not studying specifics of weapons nor collecting them.

This sword of fighting type we discuss between us for example, is certainly a thin sword to coin the phrase presented above by one author...very thin compared to English regulation swords for sure and thin in many respects to Indian swords of the time and period that he was exposed to but a strong well forged fighting type.

As I have mentioned, I have no denial that these swords were used in dance, that is not being questioned, but they did certainly carry heavier fighting blades in this style of sword.


Gavin

Salaams, SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Your viewpoint, whilst respected, is at loggerheads with mine. Last paragraph first.. There is no evidence of another type of Omani sword with a non flexible blade in dancing guise. Other than the rehilts I have detailed there is no Omani type that fits the description except of course, Tourist Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Your viewpoint, whilst respected, is at loggerheads with mine. Last paragraph first.. There is no evidence of another type of Omani sword with a non flexible blade in dancing guise. Other than the rehilts I have detailed there is no Omani type that fits the description except of course, Tourist Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Loggerheads it is Ibrahiim...but there is evidence not being embraced...the one I hold and others I have handled...of the poor crude unrefined tourist types you mention, I have never gone out of my way to obtain one.

Gavin