Flyssa with yataghan-like blade

TVV · 27th August 2013, 12:07 AM

Emanuel,

Could it be possible that this flyssa originally had a straight blade, which was crudely hammered into a down turning one? You have the sword in hand and can judge better if this is a plausible scenario or not, but the crude lines suggest to me that the blade may have been altered at some point.

Regards,
Teodor

Emanuel · 27th August 2013, 07:17 PM

Hi Jim and Teodor,

I did consider that the blade might have been curved later in its life. It would originally have looked more like the attached pic from Oriental-Arms.

The blade changes angles at two spots along the blade. I can actually see the areas along the edge that show some deformation due to a forward bend of the spine. This had to have been done on a forge though, or the areas needed to be heated to permit deformation.

I think this was still an old mofification. Camille Lacoste-Dujardin wrote that after 1850 the flyssa became obsolete and the Iflissen pretty much stopped producing them. Other neighbouring tribes started modifying blades to new tastes, with forward and back curves, and selling them to resellers in Algiers for the tourist trade. Interestingly she notes that long blades were also cut down to dagger size. This would explain why short dagger flyssa still retain unnecessarily thick blades.

Jim I might have written something years ago about young Kabyle men getting their first "Utagan" or Utarran" (yataghan). IIRC the account was written by a Englishman visiting Algeria in the 1830s. I'll try to dig up that reference.

Regards,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 27th August 2013, 07:55 PM

Hi Emanuel,
Thanks for the note on LaCoste, and I do recall you telling me that some years ago on the deterioration on flyssa production after 1850. The continuation of other producers with the understandable variations outside the Iflissa perview makes good sense, and explains many variations as you note.
Thank you for noting that reference on the acquisition of 'first yataghan' etc. My note was from a conversation many years ago rather than hard reference so I would be grateful to update my notes

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 6th November 2013, 09:59 PM

I stumbled across these photos of flyssa recently. One a photo circa 1880 the other a mannequin display in a Paris museum. Thought I'd just add them to this thread.

TVV · 7th November 2013, 12:50 AM

Very interesting pictures. The first one has the flyssa thrust through the sash in a way resembling how yataghans were carried. The other one is less clear: is it suspended through a baldric or attached to the leather munitions belt? Since the first one appears a little staged, as I do not see any cartridge boxes, etc., which would normally be necessary for anyone using a flintlock rifle. The mannequin with all the arms and accoutrements on him is more intriguing.

Regards,
Teodor

Robert · 7th November 2013, 02:31 AM

Hello Emanuel, I've noticed what looks like waves on the cutting edge of the blade (pictured below) where the downward curve seems to start. Can you tell me if this is correct? If it is may I suggest that the reason for the down curve in this might have been caused by the blade being bent at this point by having struck against a solid object. I have seen this before on other long thin bladed swords where someone ( not knowing any better) has tried to cut things like a small tree. Just speculation on my part, but it could explain the strange blade profile.

Iain · 7th November 2013, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Very interesting pictures. The first one has the flyssa thrust through the sash in a way resembling how yataghans were carried. The other one is less clear: is it suspended through a baldric or attached to the leather munitions belt? Since the first one appears a little staged, as I do not see any cartridge boxes, etc., which would normally be necessary for anyone using a flintlock rifle. The mannequin with all the arms and accoutrements on him is more intriguing.

Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,

I agree, these staged photos are not necessarily all that accurate. However the mannequin, from the Army Museum in Paris, seems to be a little more true to life. Having seen a few of their other mannequins which seems quite well done, this one is likely also pretty accurate as well.

CharlesS · 7th November 2013, 02:22 PM

Firstly, a fascinating sword. Congrats. No doubt a take on the flyssa and to find such a unique example complete with its scabbard makes it even more of a gem.

I am particularly interested in the addition of hand guard to your second curved example, even if a relatively feeble looking one, and wonder who/what influenced it. Certainly there would have been many swords about with guards, but the flyssa had been such a fiercely independent form I have to think something made the addition desirable.

27th August 2013, 07:17 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim and Teodor, I did consider that the blade might have been curved later in its life. It would originally have looked more like the attached pic from Oriental-Arms. The blade changes angles at two spots along the blade. I can actually see the areas along the edge that show some deformation due to a forward bend of the spine. This had to have been done on a forge though, or the areas needed to be heated to permit deformation. I think this was still an old mofification. Camille Lacoste-Dujardin wrote that after 1850 the flyssa became obsolete and the Iflissen pretty much stopped producing them. Other neighbouring tribes started modifying blades to new tastes, with forward and back curves, and selling them to resellers in Algiers for the tourist trade. Interestingly she notes that long blades were also cut down to dagger size. This would explain why short dagger flyssa still retain unnecessarily thick blades. Jim I might have written something years ago about young Kabyle men getting their first "Utagan" or Utarran" (yataghan). IIRC the account was written by a Englishman visiting Algeria in the 1830s. I'll try to dig up that reference. Regards, Emanuel Attached Images

6th November 2013, 09:59 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	I stumbled across these photos of flyssa recently. One a photo circa 1880 the other a mannequin display in a Paris museum. Thought I'd just add them to this thread. Attached Images

7th November 2013, 02:31 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Emanuel, I've noticed what looks like waves on the cutting edge of the blade (pictured below) where the downward curve seems to start. Can you tell me if this is correct? If it is may I suggest that the reason for the down curve in this might have been caused by the blade being bent at this point by having struck against a solid object. I have seen this before on other long thin bladed swords where someone ( not knowing any better) has tried to cut things like a small tree. Just speculation on my part, but it could explain the strange blade profile. Attached Images

27th August 2013, 12:07 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Emanuel, Could it be possible that this flyssa originally had a straight blade, which was crudely hammered into a down turning one? You have the sword in hand and can judge better if this is a plausible scenario or not, but the crude lines suggest to me that the blade may have been altered at some point. Regards, Teodor

27th August 2013, 07:55 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Emanuel, Thanks for the note on LaCoste, and I do recall you telling me that some years ago on the deterioration on flyssa production after 1850. The continuation of other producers with the understandable variations outside the Iflissa perview makes good sense, and explains many variations as you note. Thank you for noting that reference on the acquisition of 'first yataghan' etc. My note was from a conversation many years ago rather than hard reference so I would be grateful to update my notes All the best, Jim

7th November 2013, 12:50 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Very interesting pictures. The first one has the flyssa thrust through the sash in a way resembling how yataghans were carried. The other one is less clear: is it suspended through a baldric or attached to the leather munitions belt? Since the first one appears a little staged, as I do not see any cartridge boxes, etc., which would normally be necessary for anyone using a flintlock rifle. The mannequin with all the arms and accoutrements on him is more intriguing. Regards, Teodor

7th November 2013, 02:22 PM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Firstly, a fascinating sword. Congrats. No doubt a take on the flyssa and to find such a unique example complete with its scabbard makes it even more of a gem. I am particularly interested in the addition of hand guard to your second curved example, even if a relatively feeble looking one, and wonder who/what influenced it. Certainly there would have been many swords about with guards, but the flyssa had been such a fiercely independent form I have to think something made the addition desirable.