Keris Buda

David · 22nd August 2013, 06:01 AM

Thanks Alan. I was on the verge of posting something myself put some wind in the sails in these doldrum days. Your posts are must appreciated.

On your first example is that a greneng-like feature where the gonjo hooks at the tail end or is it simply blade erosion?

A. G. Maisey · 22nd August 2013, 08:32 AM

Rasdan

As with many things associated with the keris there is no way to give absolutely cast iron guarantees about anything, however authentification of a Keris Buda can be a matter of agreement between equals with considerable experience. Very often the ones that are genuine have been newly found at the time when they are sold, for instance, the one on the left in my photos has deposits sticking to it that look and react like volcanic deposits, it has obviously been in the ground for a very long time. The others I've shown photos of are correct in respect of material and both have been agreed upon as KB's by very senior people.

Authentification probably all comes down to experience and expertise.

I do have other KB's that were clearly made at a later time, not modern times, but probably around 14th-15th century.

David

That hole in the end of the gonjo is erosion.

Battara · 22nd August 2013, 11:51 PM

Great examples to view Alan.

I guess I wonder how the form morphed into the sundang of later periods from Malaysia to the Philippines in a period of 200 years.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2013, 12:34 AM

Battara, I have never looked at that question.

I have looked very closely and over a very extended period of time at development in Jawa itself, but after the keris left Jawa it seems to have followed independent lines of development in the various places that it entered.

I recall an article of some years past by (I think ) Federico Malibago, that impressed me at the time, and made a lasting impression on me. To my mind that was a well reasoned and logical rationalisation for development of the sword form of the keris.

rasjid · 28th August 2013, 02:30 PM

Hi Alan,

For Keris Buda do you think yours is passing through the hardenning process?
Any idea? Or mostly just made from medium and low carbon steel?
My guess is all low carbon because the steel is not as refined like modern steel?

Jean · 28th August 2013, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasjid

Hi Alan,

My guess is all low carbon because the steel is not as refined like modern steel?

AFAIK manufacturing low carbon steel is a quite recent process and old steel/iron had a high carbon content and was hard and brittle?

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 28th August 2013, 11:21 PM

Rasjid and Jean.

Iron and steel are both ferric material.

The difference between iron and steel is that pure iron does not contain carbon, steel does contain carbon.

Pure iron, i.e., ferric material that does not contain carbon or other impurities, is very soft, and because it does not contain carbon, it cannot be hardened.

When ferric material contains too much carbon, that very high content of carbon --- say, above 1.2%--- must be reduced to a level that permits the ferric material to be hardened to a degree that is sufficiently hard for work, but not brittle. This cleansing process in South East Asia was carried out by the repeated folding and welding of the ferric material to remove the excess carbon. In Jawa this is known as "washing the iron". In practice, the material is repeatedly folded and welded until sparks do not rise from a billet at weld heat when that billet is struck with a hammer.

For ferric material to become sufficiently hard to be used for tools that are required to hold an edge, and not break because of brittleness, the carbon content should be between +/- .4 % and +/- 1.2% . For example, a very useful modern simple carbon steel is 01 :- oil hardening steel with 1% carbon.
After steel has been hardened by heating to its critical temperature and quenched in the appropriate medium, it is hard, but it is also brittle, and that brittleness needs to be reduced. This is done by heating the steel to a temperature below critical, indicated by a heat produced colour band on the steel and then quenched to hold the steel at the degree of hardness indicated by the colour band.

Although Jawa did and does have sources of iron ore, mostly contained in beach sands, it seems that the iron produced from these sources was of a low quality and that it contained a high percentage of phosphorus, an impurity which causes iron to be very brittle. High phosphorus irons are usually lighter in colour than most other irons.

In Maritime S.E. Asia the Iron Age and the Bronze Age seem to have arrived at approximately the same time and to have progressed together. This very probably occurred because both iron and bronze were introduced to Maritime S.E. Asia by trade originating from other countries, notably China and the Indian Sub-Continent.

In Jawa the sources of iron used were principally imports from China and India in the early years of the first millennium, and later from Europe, China and India after European contact. Thus, although Jawa did have its own iron, it was more practical to use the iron imported from other countries, and this imported iron appears to have been mixed by the forge welding process with the local high phosphorus iron, thus producing mixed iron, which was called "pamor". Use of this mixing technique had two very useful factors, firstly it extended the quantity of the expensive imported iron and secondly it produced a product that had a high degree of resistance to breaking, however, this material was not able to hold a cutting edge for long, so a wafer of steel was inserted into the blade to produce an edge that could be hardened. There were several methods used to insert this wafer of steel.

When iron is produced from iron ore by smelting , the resultant product is called "pig iron", or "cast iron". This is very brittle and contains a number of impurities including carbon. The most primitive form of smelting is by use of a bloomery, which produces a "bloom" of very dirty sponge iron. The pig iron, and the sponge iron is then refined to produce wrought iron. Useable steel can be produced by working bloomery iron or cast iron to a degree sufficient to leave a low carbon content, or by producing carbon free wrought iron and then reintroducing carbon to that wrought iron.

These processes have around for about 4000 years.

So, although the modern, industrialised production of steel with varying degrees of carbon content is a comparatively recent occurrence, mankind has been able to produce iron and steel with varying degrees of carbon content for a very long time indeed.

When steel has been heat treated to make it hard, the quenching process leaves a signature in the material:- the hardened section of the material is darker in colour than the unhardened section.

To address your specific question Rasjid. All three of these blades are iron blades. I think it is possible that at least a part of the edges might have had carbon introduced by the case hardening method, however it is now impossible to know that with any certainty, because case hardening results in only a very shallow penetration of carbon to the iron, and erosion has removed any evidence of this.

22nd August 2013, 06:01 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Thanks Alan. I was on the verge of posting something myself put some wind in the sails in these doldrum days. Your posts are must appreciated. On your first example is that a greneng-like feature where the gonjo hooks at the tail end or is it simply blade erosion?

22nd August 2013, 08:32 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Rasdan As with many things associated with the keris there is no way to give absolutely cast iron guarantees about anything, however authentification of a Keris Buda can be a matter of agreement between equals with considerable experience. Very often the ones that are genuine have been newly found at the time when they are sold, for instance, the one on the left in my photos has deposits sticking to it that look and react like volcanic deposits, it has obviously been in the ground for a very long time. The others I've shown photos of are correct in respect of material and both have been agreed upon as KB's by very senior people. Authentification probably all comes down to experience and expertise. I do have other KB's that were clearly made at a later time, not modern times, but probably around 14th-15th century. David That hole in the end of the gonjo is erosion.

22nd August 2013, 11:51 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	Great examples to view Alan. I guess I wonder how the form morphed into the sundang of later periods from Malaysia to the Philippines in a period of 200 years.

23rd August 2013, 12:34 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Battara, I have never looked at that question. I have looked very closely and over a very extended period of time at development in Jawa itself, but after the keris left Jawa it seems to have followed independent lines of development in the various places that it entered. I recall an article of some years past by (I think ) Federico Malibago, that impressed me at the time, and made a lasting impression on me. To my mind that was a well reasoned and logical rationalisation for development of the sword form of the keris.

28th August 2013, 02:30 PM	#5
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Hi Alan, For Keris Buda do you think yours is passing through the hardenning process? Any idea? Or mostly just made from medium and low carbon steel? My guess is all low carbon because the steel is not as refined like modern steel?

28th August 2013, 11:21 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Rasjid and Jean. Iron and steel are both ferric material. The difference between iron and steel is that pure iron does not contain carbon, steel does contain carbon. Pure iron, i.e., ferric material that does not contain carbon or other impurities, is very soft, and because it does not contain carbon, it cannot be hardened. When ferric material contains too much carbon, that very high content of carbon --- say, above 1.2%--- must be reduced to a level that permits the ferric material to be hardened to a degree that is sufficiently hard for work, but not brittle. This cleansing process in South East Asia was carried out by the repeated folding and welding of the ferric material to remove the excess carbon. In Jawa this is known as "washing the iron". In practice, the material is repeatedly folded and welded until sparks do not rise from a billet at weld heat when that billet is struck with a hammer. For ferric material to become sufficiently hard to be used for tools that are required to hold an edge, and not break because of brittleness, the carbon content should be between +/- .4 % and +/- 1.2% . For example, a very useful modern simple carbon steel is 01 :- oil hardening steel with 1% carbon. After steel has been hardened by heating to its critical temperature and quenched in the appropriate medium, it is hard, but it is also brittle, and that brittleness needs to be reduced. This is done by heating the steel to a temperature below critical, indicated by a heat produced colour band on the steel and then quenched to hold the steel at the degree of hardness indicated by the colour band. Although Jawa did and does have sources of iron ore, mostly contained in beach sands, it seems that the iron produced from these sources was of a low quality and that it contained a high percentage of phosphorus, an impurity which causes iron to be very brittle. High phosphorus irons are usually lighter in colour than most other irons. In Maritime S.E. Asia the Iron Age and the Bronze Age seem to have arrived at approximately the same time and to have progressed together. This very probably occurred because both iron and bronze were introduced to Maritime S.E. Asia by trade originating from other countries, notably China and the Indian Sub-Continent. In Jawa the sources of iron used were principally imports from China and India in the early years of the first millennium, and later from Europe, China and India after European contact. Thus, although Jawa did have its own iron, it was more practical to use the iron imported from other countries, and this imported iron appears to have been mixed by the forge welding process with the local high phosphorus iron, thus producing mixed iron, which was called "pamor". Use of this mixing technique had two very useful factors, firstly it extended the quantity of the expensive imported iron and secondly it produced a product that had a high degree of resistance to breaking, however, this material was not able to hold a cutting edge for long, so a wafer of steel was inserted into the blade to produce an edge that could be hardened. There were several methods used to insert this wafer of steel. When iron is produced from iron ore by smelting , the resultant product is called "pig iron", or "cast iron". This is very brittle and contains a number of impurities including carbon. The most primitive form of smelting is by use of a bloomery, which produces a "bloom" of very dirty sponge iron. The pig iron, and the sponge iron is then refined to produce wrought iron. Useable steel can be produced by working bloomery iron or cast iron to a degree sufficient to leave a low carbon content, or by producing carbon free wrought iron and then reintroducing carbon to that wrought iron. These processes have around for about 4000 years. So, although the modern, industrialised production of steel with varying degrees of carbon content is a comparatively recent occurrence, mankind has been able to produce iron and steel with varying degrees of carbon content for a very long time indeed. When steel has been heat treated to make it hard, the quenching process leaves a signature in the material:- the hardened section of the material is darker in colour than the unhardened section. To address your specific question Rasjid. All three of these blades are iron blades. I think it is possible that at least a part of the edges might have had carbon introduced by the case hardening method, however it is now impossible to know that with any certainty, because case hardening results in only a very shallow penetration of carbon to the iron, and erosion has removed any evidence of this.