Indonesian swords

[A. G. Maisey]

In Jawa, pedang were not status indicators, as keris could often be, and in olden times, were.

However, one would not expect to see a common man with a silver mounted pedang, nor would one expect to see a ruler with a silver mounted pedang. The ruler would very probably opt for gold, the common man for wood, if he even owned a pedang. Mostly common soldiers were armed with spears, and often those spears would not even have iron tips but were simply sharpened and hardened bamboo; this was particularly the case where levies were involved.

This is a pedang of pretty ordinary quality, not outstanding in any way, but it is a good, solid, functional piece in dress that could be used in a formal setting. I would expect to see such a pedang as the property of a middle ranking noble, not a man of exalted status, and not a common soldier.

[Marcus]

Would the Keris also be found in Java. If so, were they more or less common than a pedang like this?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcus

Would the Keris also be found in Java. If so, were they more or less common than a pedang like this?

Hello Marcus,

the keris is very common in old times in Java and by official events still today. But your keris isn't from Java, keris from Java are different. Read in keris warung kopi, you will find many examples from Java. The keris was more common than the pedang IMHO.

[A. G. Maisey]

Marcus, the keris originated in Jawa more than 1000 years ago.

It was and is central to Javanese indigenous belief.

It spread from Jawa to other parts of Maritime South East Asia, but it spread in the absence of its socio-religious context. Even in Jawa itself the understanding of the keris underwent changes after the fall of the Hindu-Javanese kingdom of Majapahit.

For the last 200 years the keris in Jawa has been a requisite part of formal dress.

Don't get hooked on keris. Too much knowledge can destroy the naïve joy of simple weapon collecting.

[Marcus]

My primary interest is the history of firearms. I am just planning to add some edged weapons to the fourth edition of my book.
www.handfulsofhistory.com

I post some vignettes at this site:
http://handfulsofhistory.tumblr.com/

Cheers,
Marcus

[Marcus]

There has been a lot of interesting discussion but I am still unsure of the answer to my basic question. Give that the keris and pedang were both common on Java, who would choose a Keris over a pedang and visa versa? Would it be village to village, tribe to tribe, based on religious differences, social status, or just random?

[A. G. Maisey]

Marcus, it was not a matter of choice.

The keris was a symbol of the man, and apart from its weapon function was a socio-religious symbol.

The pedang was merely a weapon.

The keris was a personal weapon when it fulfilled the weapon function, and on the battlefield, a weapon of last resort.

The pedang was primarily a weapon and had no socio-religious connotations.

The keris was, and still is, required wear in certain situations.

The pedang was optional wear in some situations.

Both could be pusaka, or heirlooms, but only the keris as pusaka had the function of uniting past custodians with the present and the present custodian with current members of the kin group. In the case of a ruler, the regalia pusaka keris had the function of uniting the ruler with the people of his realm.

The keris must be understood as a cultural icon, not simply a weapon, but the pedang is no more than a simple tool to end life.

There is no similarity between the cultural position of these two objects.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcus

There has been a lot of interesting discussion but I am still unsure of the answer to my basic question. Give that the keris and pedang were both common on Java, who would choose a Keris over a pedang and visa versa? Would it be village to village, tribe to tribe, based on religious differences, social status, or just random?

I think that the question isn't easy to answer. The keris belong to the dress and is more a status symbol as a weapon (of course it is also a weapon and surely also used as that) while the pedang is clearly a weapon. In old times every man (or nearly every man) have had a keris but not every man have had a pedang IMHO. This don't have to do something with the ethnicity (tribe is here the wrong word) or religion but maybe with social status. Javanese culture is difficult to understand and your question can't be answered in short words.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Marcus

My primary interest is the history of firearms. I am just planning to add some edged weapons to the fourth edition of my book.
www.handfulsofhistory.com

I post some vignettes at this site:
http://handfulsofhistory.tumblr.com/

Cheers,
Marcus

"What was the impact of Japanese isolationist policies on firearm development in that country for 300 years?'

Marcus, an interesting subject, maybe you can start a thread on this subject sometime.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by estcrh

"What was the impact of Japanese isolationist policies on firearm development in that country for 300 years?'

Marcus, an interesting subject, maybe you can start a thread on this subject sometime.

Of course the obvious impact was that the Japanese were still using 16th century matchlocks in the 19th century. Their use however had been elevated to the status of one of the Samurai's arts.