Antique blade... roman, celtic, iliria?

TVV · 22nd October 2005, 12:24 AM

Well, if have bought it first hand from the treasure-hunetrs, then there is no reason for concern. However, I still doubt the huge number of mahairas on eBay. There are thousands of Thracian burial sites in Bulgaria alone, and in Bulgarian museums the mahairas are not too many. Actually, they are probably less than the ones currently on eBay. And while one can doubt the mahairas (which when you think about it are extremely easy to fake), I certainly do not doubt the so-called Byzantine daggers, which are all late 19th, early 20th century village knives.
As far as Slavic weapons, this is a great topic. In Bulgaria, only one or two swords have been found and catalogued, and even those two are not certain to be Slavic, since they can also be Bulgarian, Byzantine, Avar or even Varyag. In a Czech book about early medieval Slavic artefacts I was once able to look at, there were a few swords, which were very similar in structure and hilt decoration to early Viking swords, which is not surprising as swordsmith centers in Western Europe were situated along the Rhein. Your piece does not seem at all like them, while with its ring hilt it has a very far resemblance to some central Asian pieces: maybe it was brought to the Western Balkans by the Huns. But this is an area I have very little knowledge in and so would stop speculating.
Regards,
Teodor

Miyamoto · 22nd October 2005, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

And while one can doubt the mahairas (which when you think about it are extremely easy to fake), I certainly do not doubt the so-called Byzantine daggers, which are all late 19th, early 20th century village knives.

Yes, I've spotted them to

Some of them even retains the original macedonian dried mood on them

Miyamoto · 28th October 2005, 04:23 PM

Rivkin,

Still waiting for your photos

I the meanwhile here is a foto from a book stating that the dagger is Celtic... I find it verry similar to the one in my possesion. Less decorated, but still.

TVV · 13th November 2005, 09:43 AM

Miyamoto,
While I personally fail to see any similarity between the item in your possession and the Celtic swords from the book photo you have posted, I believe I have discovered a picture you and the other forumites may deem interesting. This photo has been taken in the Sofia shop of a Bulgarian antiques salesman, at least a few years ago (he does not keep a shop anymore). For his protection I have blackened his face. Now, take a close look at the item right next to his head that I have encircled in red. Other than the price tag on the hilt, to my eye at least it appears very similar to, if not identical to the item that started this thread.
I know that this does not tell anything more about the origin of this item from what we already know, but here are just a few thoughts, which you can feel free to disagree with. You say you have purchased yours several years ago, which coincides with the approximate time the photo I have attached to this message was taken (I know that for certain). It appears there were two identical mysterious ancient artefacts at about the same time both in Bulgaria and Slovenia. I myself have two possible explanations for that phenomenon: either one and the same dagger made its way from Sofia to Slovenia, or approximately several years ago somebody opened a small shop and produced God only knows how many of these ancient daggers. From my experience with forgers in my own country, I think the latter is more likely.
I hope to be proven conclusively wrong, as then these daggers will contribute to the archaeology of weapons on the whole Balkan peninsula, but in light of the evidence so far and my own experience and observations, I am afraid we have another case of mass-produced "ancient" weapons we have to watch out for.
Regards,
Teodor

Miyamoto · 13th November 2005, 10:47 AM

Great Find TVV!!!!!

Thank you verry much!

The daggers looks verry similar indeed. It seems quite bigger than mine from what I can tell from the photo.

No, as I said before I'm excluding it to be a forgery. My friend found it in the ground and gave it to me for free. I'm 100% certain about that. To the antique origin of this blade I can add the fact that thoose ornaments are gold (tested).

It is quite impressive however that two almost identical weapons existed on such a vast space. If I weren't absolutely certain that the dagger in my possesion is orginal I would also claim that it is a repro...

However, the evidence is breathtaking.

The possibility of such extensive use in the past is almost fantasientific, and beyond that, practically the same condition of the two daggers.
I really do not know whta to say.

That's a mysteriy.

Do you know that guy, TVV? Is there any remote possibilty to gather further info about that dagger?

TVV · 13th November 2005, 08:43 PM

I will ask him about that dagger, and hopefully, he will remember it. He is quite knowledgeable about antique weapons, especially 19th century ones, which he specializes in as you can see from the photo, but I do not know how extensive his knowledge on ancient weapons is. I will see if he knows anything more.
Regards,
Teodor

28th October 2005, 04:23 PM	#3
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Rivkin, Still waiting for your photos I the meanwhile here is a foto from a book stating that the dagger is Celtic... I find it verry similar to the one in my possesion. Less decorated, but still. Attached Images

13th November 2005, 09:43 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Miyamoto, While I personally fail to see any similarity between the item in your possession and the Celtic swords from the book photo you have posted, I believe I have discovered a picture you and the other forumites may deem interesting. This photo has been taken in the Sofia shop of a Bulgarian antiques salesman, at least a few years ago (he does not keep a shop anymore). For his protection I have blackened his face. Now, take a close look at the item right next to his head that I have encircled in red. Other than the price tag on the hilt, to my eye at least it appears very similar to, if not identical to the item that started this thread. I know that this does not tell anything more about the origin of this item from what we already know, but here are just a few thoughts, which you can feel free to disagree with. You say you have purchased yours several years ago, which coincides with the approximate time the photo I have attached to this message was taken (I know that for certain). It appears there were two identical mysterious ancient artefacts at about the same time both in Bulgaria and Slovenia. I myself have two possible explanations for that phenomenon: either one and the same dagger made its way from Sofia to Slovenia, or approximately several years ago somebody opened a small shop and produced God only knows how many of these ancient daggers. From my experience with forgers in my own country, I think the latter is more likely. I hope to be proven conclusively wrong, as then these daggers will contribute to the archaeology of weapons on the whole Balkan peninsula, but in light of the evidence so far and my own experience and observations, I am afraid we have another case of mass-produced "ancient" weapons we have to watch out for. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

13th November 2005, 10:47 AM	#5
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Great Find TVV!!!!! Thank you verry much! The daggers looks verry similar indeed. It seems quite bigger than mine from what I can tell from the photo. No, as I said before I'm excluding it to be a forgery. My friend found it in the ground and gave it to me for free. I'm 100% certain about that. To the antique origin of this blade I can add the fact that thoose ornaments are gold (tested). It is quite impressive however that two almost identical weapons existed on such a vast space. If I weren't absolutely certain that the dagger in my possesion is orginal I would also claim that it is a repro... However, the evidence is breathtaking. The possibility of such extensive use in the past is almost fantasientific, and beyond that, practically the same condition of the two daggers. I really do not know whta to say. That's a mysteriy. Do you know that guy, TVV? Is there any remote possibilty to gather further info about that dagger? Last edited by Miyamoto; 13th November 2005 at 07:53 PM.

22nd October 2005, 12:24 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Well, if have bought it first hand from the treasure-hunetrs, then there is no reason for concern. However, I still doubt the huge number of mahairas on eBay. There are thousands of Thracian burial sites in Bulgaria alone, and in Bulgarian museums the mahairas are not too many. Actually, they are probably less than the ones currently on eBay. And while one can doubt the mahairas (which when you think about it are extremely easy to fake), I certainly do not doubt the so-called Byzantine daggers, which are all late 19th, early 20th century village knives. As far as Slavic weapons, this is a great topic. In Bulgaria, only one or two swords have been found and catalogued, and even those two are not certain to be Slavic, since they can also be Bulgarian, Byzantine, Avar or even Varyag. In a Czech book about early medieval Slavic artefacts I was once able to look at, there were a few swords, which were very similar in structure and hilt decoration to early Viking swords, which is not surprising as swordsmith centers in Western Europe were situated along the Rhein. Your piece does not seem at all like them, while with its ring hilt it has a very far resemblance to some central Asian pieces: maybe it was brought to the Western Balkans by the Huns. But this is an area I have very little knowledge in and so would stop speculating. Regards, Teodor

13th November 2005, 08:43 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	I will ask him about that dagger, and hopefully, he will remember it. He is quite knowledgeable about antique weapons, especially 19th century ones, which he specializes in as you can see from the photo, but I do not know how extensive his knowledge on ancient weapons is. I will see if he knows anything more. Regards, Teodor