Balinese/Lombok pedang

A. G. Maisey · 7th July 2013, 03:21 AM

In the 1950's these swords were usually given by collectors and British dealers as either "Java" or "Malaya".

I do not believe that either of these attributions were necessarily correct, but I think probably most people accepted this at the time.

In recent years I think most collectors attribute this sword type to Sumatera, I don't know exactly where in Sumatera, but I've read a Palembang attribution somewhere.

In this Forum I have seen attributions of Lombok, and other places in the Indonesian Archipelago.

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

If anybody ever reaches the position of being able to give a verifiable point of geographic origin for this type of sword, as distinct from an opinion, I think it might be possible that we find the style originating in Sumatera and travelling as items of trade to other areas within the Archipelago. This would be pretty recent trade I think, perhaps within the last 200 years. These are very attractive swords and would very probably have been appreciated by many people across the Archipelago.

By "geographic point of origin" my meaning is that the sword was made in an identifiable place and used or worn there.

In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

VVV · 7th July 2013, 07:51 AM

I am also of the opinion that this kind of Pedang originated around Palembang. A case in point is that of those found in museums most often they have been collected in expeditions from that region. They are also found in other areas, most often Lombok but also in coastal South Borneo (among the Malays) and in Peninsular Malaysia. Local production and variations of a popular blade is a phenomenon also found for other weapons of this region.

To not the let this thread drift too far away I would prefer that Maurice first gets his translation, and we discuss the age and purpose of adding Qur'anic quotes on the blade.
Maybe after that we can add other reference pictures and discuss hilt and blade variations among the different regions.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 7th July 2013, 08:58 AM

Michael, my remarks on calligraphic enhancement of blades is directed only at the particular type of calligraphic enhancement that we can see on this blade.

I believe most of us would be aware that it was not unusual for blades to bear other calligraphic enhancements that date from much earlier periods and which were placed on the blades for purposes other than the one I have mentioned.

However, I will make this further comment. Over the years I have often referred these blades to people I know in Solo for translation. One of these people is a very learned man who is able to read a number of different script variations. It is seldom that the inscriptions found on blades that I have personally handled are written accurately, in that sometimes the actual quotation will be wrong, at at other times the letters used to write the quotation will be formed in a way that makes a nonsense of what has been intended to be written. Sometimes the person to whom I have turned for assistance is able to guess what has been intended, at other times the opinion is that whoever put the inscription on the blade did not really know how to write and was putting on symbols that simply looked like letters to somebody who also could not read.

As to how a discussion in this Forum progresses, perhaps I am in error, but I have been under the impression that those of us who contribute to a discussion may contribute as we see fit, not wait until we are given some oblique cue that lets us know we are now permitted to say that which we wish to say.

I do most sincerely hope that Maurice will receive an accurate translation of the letters on his blade, but I do not believe that it is in anybody's best interests for us to sit on our keyboards and wait until this event occurs.

Regarding production of these swords in places other than original point of origin, yes, it is entirely possible that the style could be produced in places other than the place where it originated, but in the identification of other places where such swords might have been made I feel it might be quite difficult at this point in time to nail down a variation to a particular location. It is entirely possible that all apparent stylistic variation could in fact be quality variation, and the swords may all have been manufactured in the same area by different people.

I've spent a bit of time going through my references and quite frankly I cannot find very much at all on this particular type of sword. I would welcome the identification of reliable references by those who are better informed than I in respect of these particular swords.

VVV · 7th July 2013, 01:19 PM

Alan,

Your comments on talismanic writing etc. is indeed a well known and quite universal phenomenon both in the Muslim (Arabic) as well as the Catholic (Latin) periphery. Quite often the one actually making the inlay was not also a highly learned religious scholar.
My comment on in what order to answer all the different questions brought up in this thread is of course only how I prefer to respond to it myself (out of respect for Maurice's original question that started this thread) and only relevant for how I choose to participate in this discussion.

Michael

Sajen · 7th July 2013, 05:52 PM

Hi Maurice,

first, sorry about my late reply to your very interesting pedang. A shame that the handle is broken. Here some of my thoughts about it. I also think that it is from Lombok, me was told in Indonesia that this pedang with this type of handle coming from Lombok, have also a look to this thread, special #16: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang. In the beginning of the 90ties last century you can find a lot of this pedangs in Bali antique shops and every time it was told they are from Lombok. Of course this isn't a guarantee that it is indeed like this.

I am with you that the inlays are done well, this could be a indication that they are old. I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example. But what I remember well, the blade was like yours very black stained. This is IMHO done to highlight the silver inlays. So I don't think that the black surface is old patina. This could be done in old times but as well recently. Like Alan I have seen blades with such inlays where I have been sure that this inlays are added for a better selling-price purpose but on the other hand I think to have seen blades with inlays which have been early collected but can't remember where.

Sorry that I am not able to give you new informations.

Best regards,

Detlef

Maurice · 7th July 2013, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

A shame that the handle is broken.

Hi Detlef, I don't mind. Indeed a pity, but it happend a very long time ago considering the patination, which is the same as the rest of the handle.
And old breakoffs make antique blades have more character..... :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here some of my thoughts about it. I also think that it is from Lombok, me was told in Indonesia that this pedang with this type of handle coming from Lombok, have also a look to this thread, special #16: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang. In the beginning of the 90ties last century you can find a lot of this pedangs in Bali antique shops and every time it was told they are from Lombok. Of course this isn't a guarantee that it is indeed like this.

Thank you for sharing this phenomenom.
Though I would rather be more happy to have more information from old articles, images, drawings etc. etc., as from people selling stuff in "antique shops"...
Till now I don't have an old article yet which describes more about these pedangs and their origin. And we might never find one as there isn't one?
Or maybe something will show up which would surprise us and give a more better insight here.
What I did learn in the years of collecting till now, is to have a very good nose of "old patina". And this one has very fine glossy patina, and the blade is also of a high quality (as mentioned very difficult to show on pictures).
But I would love to compare different kind (recent and old) inlay with eachother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I am with you that the inlays are done well, this could be a indication that they are old. I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example. But what I remember well, the blade was like yours very black stained. This is IMHO done to highlight the silver inlays. So I don't think that the black surface is old patina. This could be done in old times but as well recently. Like Alan I have seen blades with such inlays where I have been sure that this inlays are added for a better selling-price purpose but on the other hand I think to have seen blades with inlays which have been early collected but can't remember where.

I'm sure this happened. But I need comparison images of swords with "recent inlays" and swords which are early collected with "old inlays". This to have a close research on them if I've the right feeling or I'm hitting it wrong.
So if you find the blades with old inlays and early collected, I would be thankfull if you post them here.

Maurice

A. G. Maisey · 8th July 2013, 12:36 AM

Maurice, one of the problems that we sometimes face in this Forum is clarity of intent.

This is an English language Forum, but we have a very multi-cultural population of members, people for whom English is not their native language. I, and I am certain, all of us who are native English speakers very much appreciate the effort made by the non-native speakers of English who contribute to discussion, however, sometimes misunderstandings can occur. For example, I misread the tone of Michael's post on "order" as a directive to myself and others to proceed in discussion in a particular way that had already been decided upon by Michael. My interpretation was shown to be incorrect, as Michael subsequently pointed out, what he had written was only a clarification of his own preferences.

It seems a misunderstanding of my own intent may also have occurred. I thought that the content of my posts was clear, but apparently either the tone or the actual text has been misunderstood somewhere along the line so I'll try to clarify.

1)---I do not doubt that this type of sword can be found in many places throughout the Indonesian Archipelago.

2)---I do not doubt that it can be found in Lombok, even though there seems to be some evidence for its origin and existence in Southern Sumatera.

3)---My use of the phrase:- "my area of confusion" means exactly what it says, it not a polite way of casting doubt on anything; I am confused by the existence of this style of sword in both Southern Sumatera and Lombok.
Why?
Because the history of Lombok does not reveal any sociological link of substance that would explain the existence of this style of sword in these two widely placed locations. The Dutch were not really a contributing factor until the late 19th century, and did not gain any sort of substantial foothold until the early 20th century.
The Sasak are regarded as indigenous to Lombok and Islam became the general belief system during the 16th century; the island was not united and constant fighting existed between the Sasak, the Balinese colonised Lombok, and they brought it under control during the first half of the 19th century; the Bugis also established settlements in Lombok and challenged the Balinese. Nowhere can there be seen any input from South Sumatera, and the Dutch influence virtually did not exist until the early 20th century. However, Djelengga refers to this type of sword as a "traditional weapon of Lombok", and obviously a weapon of the Sasak people.

I wrote exactly what I meant:- I am confused; very often with the transference of material culture throughout the Indonesian Archipelago we can see clear and verifiable links. In the case of this item of material culture I cannot identify any such links, or even influences. Thus my confusion.
Incidentally, Djelengga calls this a "kelewang". In Jawa we'd call it a pedang. Using English I feel that "sword" is perhaps more appropriate.

I do hope that the above adequately clarifies what I meant in my previous post.

To respond to your comments, Maurice.

It seems that contrary to perhaps everybody else who has commented on this blade ornamentation, I do not find it to be particularly good. Previously I have referred to "this style" or "this type" of blade ornamentation, and by that I mean superficial applied silver ornamentation upon a very recently polished surface that has subsequently been false patinated. This type of work is most often produced by people who sell out of a particular market in Surabaya, and is also done in Jogja. The Surabaya source has been in existence for a very long time, the Jogja source for a shorter period, both have been producing since at least the 1950's.

It is rule of the trade in Jawa that when one had something that is very difficult to sell, for one reason or another, then action needs to be taken to enhance that object to make it a desirable product. This sword is badly damaged, and would be extremely difficult to find a buyer for in the Indonesian market, so it was enhanced to make it saleable. I do not know if the text on this particular sword is true text, or simply a mixture of symbols that looks like text, I can identify some characters, others seem to me like scribbles, but I am not at all qualified to give an opinion on this. However, whether it is true text, or whether it is a mockery of text, that does not alter the nature of this ornamentation, nor the reason it was done.

Maurice, you have requested that I post images of the sort of thing I am writing about.

I cannot do this. I wrote that I have seen this sort of thing, not that I possessed it. In fact I have very little interest in the various and sundry swords and daggers of Indonesia. My prime area of study is the keris, particularly of Jawa and Bali, and to a lesser degree the tombak. However, during any given year it is inevitable that I see and handle a very great number of keris, tombak, swords, daggers and other items of Indonesian material culture. I do not buy all these things, I simply look at them and buy a fraction of a percent.

Maurice, I do apologize for being brutal, but what I have written is my professional opinion, an opinion that has been formed by being a part of the Javanese keris trade for in excess of 30 years, and from being taught by a man who began dealing in keris and other traditional weapons in the late 1940's. What I am describing here has been going on since at least the late 19th century.

I think I should terminate my involvement in this thread. It seems that my presence here is only detracting from what would otherwise be a nice, mutually satisfactory exchange of opinions. Regrettably all opinions are not equal.

kai · 9th July 2013, 02:03 PM

Hello Maurice,

Quote:

Though I would rather be more happy to have more information from old articles, images, drawings etc. etc., as from people selling stuff in "antique shops"...
Till now I don't have an old article yet which describes more about these pedangs and their origin. And we might never find one as there isn't one?

Well, the only really old source which readily comes to mind is Schmeltz (1890; attached). And Fischer has it in the catalog for South Sumatra (1918).

Regards,
Kai

kai · 9th July 2013, 01:45 PM

Quote:

I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 9th July 2013, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.

Regards,
Kai

Exactly this one was meant, have forgotten that I have posted pictures at this place. Agree, the inlays look recent to me as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Maurice · 11th July 2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.

Indeed a very different quality of inlay...

Maurice · 7th July 2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

One connection could be the Dutch, who were present and travelling between the Indonesian archipellago isles in very early days and for long time, and also often there were native people with them on their travels to other islands. From here we allready would have a link, and therefore a connection of intercultural "pollination" and "copying" of for instance swords....

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

Therefore we need an explanation of the text by somebody.
From there we could say more about it. If somebody would use a "mock calligraphic ornamentation", I don't think it would be done so intensive and so fine as on this pedang.
If you have seen often "this type of calligraphic ornamentations" as you mentions, I would like you to post some images here for comparison if possible.
I also have images from pedangs (of other collections, and therefore not propriate to post here), of which I'm sure it's definately not as old and finely done as mine. Also it's done much more crudely, and not so intensively.
In comparison with the one in this thread, I never have seen a pedang ornamented as labour-intensive and decoratively done as this one. So I doubt it's only supposed to be a "mock calligraphy".
But this is only from my common sense and I would love to know more and it might be when we have a translation...

Thanks for your input!

Maurice

7th July 2013, 03:21 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,018	In the 1950's these swords were usually given by collectors and British dealers as either "Java" or "Malaya". I do not believe that either of these attributions were necessarily correct, but I think probably most people accepted this at the time. In recent years I think most collectors attribute this sword type to Sumatera, I don't know exactly where in Sumatera, but I've read a Palembang attribution somewhere. In this Forum I have seen attributions of Lombok, and other places in the Indonesian Archipelago. My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword. If anybody ever reaches the position of being able to give a verifiable point of geographic origin for this type of sword, as distinct from an opinion, I think it might be possible that we find the style originating in Sumatera and travelling as items of trade to other areas within the Archipelago. This would be pretty recent trade I think, perhaps within the last 200 years. These are very attractive swords and would very probably have been appreciated by many people across the Archipelago. By "geographic point of origin" my meaning is that the sword was made in an identifiable place and used or worn there. In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

7th July 2013, 07:51 AM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I am also of the opinion that this kind of Pedang originated around Palembang. A case in point is that of those found in museums most often they have been collected in expeditions from that region. They are also found in other areas, most often Lombok but also in coastal South Borneo (among the Malays) and in Peninsular Malaysia. Local production and variations of a popular blade is a phenomenon also found for other weapons of this region. To not the let this thread drift too far away I would prefer that Maurice first gets his translation, and we discuss the age and purpose of adding Qur'anic quotes on the blade. Maybe after that we can add other reference pictures and discuss hilt and blade variations among the different regions. Michael

7th July 2013, 08:58 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,018	Michael, my remarks on calligraphic enhancement of blades is directed only at the particular type of calligraphic enhancement that we can see on this blade. I believe most of us would be aware that it was not unusual for blades to bear other calligraphic enhancements that date from much earlier periods and which were placed on the blades for purposes other than the one I have mentioned. However, I will make this further comment. Over the years I have often referred these blades to people I know in Solo for translation. One of these people is a very learned man who is able to read a number of different script variations. It is seldom that the inscriptions found on blades that I have personally handled are written accurately, in that sometimes the actual quotation will be wrong, at at other times the letters used to write the quotation will be formed in a way that makes a nonsense of what has been intended to be written. Sometimes the person to whom I have turned for assistance is able to guess what has been intended, at other times the opinion is that whoever put the inscription on the blade did not really know how to write and was putting on symbols that simply looked like letters to somebody who also could not read. As to how a discussion in this Forum progresses, perhaps I am in error, but I have been under the impression that those of us who contribute to a discussion may contribute as we see fit, not wait until we are given some oblique cue that lets us know we are now permitted to say that which we wish to say. I do most sincerely hope that Maurice will receive an accurate translation of the letters on his blade, but I do not believe that it is in anybody's best interests for us to sit on our keyboards and wait until this event occurs. Regarding production of these swords in places other than original point of origin, yes, it is entirely possible that the style could be produced in places other than the place where it originated, but in the identification of other places where such swords might have been made I feel it might be quite difficult at this point in time to nail down a variation to a particular location. It is entirely possible that all apparent stylistic variation could in fact be quality variation, and the swords may all have been manufactured in the same area by different people. I've spent a bit of time going through my references and quite frankly I cannot find very much at all on this particular type of sword. I would welcome the identification of reliable references by those who are better informed than I in respect of these particular swords.

7th July 2013, 01:19 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alan, Your comments on talismanic writing etc. is indeed a well known and quite universal phenomenon both in the Muslim (Arabic) as well as the Catholic (Latin) periphery. Quite often the one actually making the inlay was not also a highly learned religious scholar. My comment on in what order to answer all the different questions brought up in this thread is of course only how I prefer to respond to it myself (out of respect for Maurice's original question that started this thread) and only relevant for how I choose to participate in this discussion. Michael

7th July 2013, 05:52 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,214	Hi Maurice, first, sorry about my late reply to your very interesting pedang. A shame that the handle is broken. Here some of my thoughts about it. I also think that it is from Lombok, me was told in Indonesia that this pedang with this type of handle coming from Lombok, have also a look to this thread, special #16: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang. In the beginning of the 90ties last century you can find a lot of this pedangs in Bali antique shops and every time it was told they are from Lombok. Of course this isn't a guarantee that it is indeed like this. I am with you that the inlays are done well, this could be a indication that they are old. I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example. But what I remember well, the blade was like yours very black stained. This is IMHO done to highlight the silver inlays. So I don't think that the black surface is old patina. This could be done in old times but as well recently. Like Alan I have seen blades with such inlays where I have been sure that this inlays are added for a better selling-price purpose but on the other hand I think to have seen blades with inlays which have been early collected but can't remember where. Sorry that I am not able to give you new informations. Best regards, Detlef

8th July 2013, 12:36 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,018	Maurice, one of the problems that we sometimes face in this Forum is clarity of intent. This is an English language Forum, but we have a very multi-cultural population of members, people for whom English is not their native language. I, and I am certain, all of us who are native English speakers very much appreciate the effort made by the non-native speakers of English who contribute to discussion, however, sometimes misunderstandings can occur. For example, I misread the tone of Michael's post on "order" as a directive to myself and others to proceed in discussion in a particular way that had already been decided upon by Michael. My interpretation was shown to be incorrect, as Michael subsequently pointed out, what he had written was only a clarification of his own preferences. It seems a misunderstanding of my own intent may also have occurred. I thought that the content of my posts was clear, but apparently either the tone or the actual text has been misunderstood somewhere along the line so I'll try to clarify. 1)---I do not doubt that this type of sword can be found in many places throughout the Indonesian Archipelago. 2)---I do not doubt that it can be found in Lombok, even though there seems to be some evidence for its origin and existence in Southern Sumatera. 3)---My use of the phrase:- "my area of confusion" means exactly what it says, it not a polite way of casting doubt on anything; I am confused by the existence of this style of sword in both Southern Sumatera and Lombok. Why? Because the history of Lombok does not reveal any sociological link of substance that would explain the existence of this style of sword in these two widely placed locations. The Dutch were not really a contributing factor until the late 19th century, and did not gain any sort of substantial foothold until the early 20th century. The Sasak are regarded as indigenous to Lombok and Islam became the general belief system during the 16th century; the island was not united and constant fighting existed between the Sasak, the Balinese colonised Lombok, and they brought it under control during the first half of the 19th century; the Bugis also established settlements in Lombok and challenged the Balinese. Nowhere can there be seen any input from South Sumatera, and the Dutch influence virtually did not exist until the early 20th century. However, Djelengga refers to this type of sword as a "traditional weapon of Lombok", and obviously a weapon of the Sasak people. I wrote exactly what I meant:- I am confused; very often with the transference of material culture throughout the Indonesian Archipelago we can see clear and verifiable links. In the case of this item of material culture I cannot identify any such links, or even influences. Thus my confusion. Incidentally, Djelengga calls this a "kelewang". In Jawa we'd call it a pedang. Using English I feel that "sword" is perhaps more appropriate. I do hope that the above adequately clarifies what I meant in my previous post. To respond to your comments, Maurice. It seems that contrary to perhaps everybody else who has commented on this blade ornamentation, I do not find it to be particularly good. Previously I have referred to "this style" or "this type" of blade ornamentation, and by that I mean superficial applied silver ornamentation upon a very recently polished surface that has subsequently been false patinated. This type of work is most often produced by people who sell out of a particular market in Surabaya, and is also done in Jogja. The Surabaya source has been in existence for a very long time, the Jogja source for a shorter period, both have been producing since at least the 1950's. It is rule of the trade in Jawa that when one had something that is very difficult to sell, for one reason or another, then action needs to be taken to enhance that object to make it a desirable product. This sword is badly damaged, and would be extremely difficult to find a buyer for in the Indonesian market, so it was enhanced to make it saleable. I do not know if the text on this particular sword is true text, or simply a mixture of symbols that looks like text, I can identify some characters, others seem to me like scribbles, but I am not at all qualified to give an opinion on this. However, whether it is true text, or whether it is a mockery of text, that does not alter the nature of this ornamentation, nor the reason it was done. Maurice, you have requested that I post images of the sort of thing I am writing about. I cannot do this. I wrote that I have seen this sort of thing, not that I possessed it. In fact I have very little interest in the various and sundry swords and daggers of Indonesia. My prime area of study is the keris, particularly of Jawa and Bali, and to a lesser degree the tombak. However, during any given year it is inevitable that I see and handle a very great number of keris, tombak, swords, daggers and other items of Indonesian material culture. I do not buy all these things, I simply look at them and buy a fraction of a percent. Maurice, I do apologize for being brutal, but what I have written is my professional opinion, an opinion that has been formed by being a part of the Javanese keris trade for in excess of 30 years, and from being taught by a man who began dealing in keris and other traditional weapons in the late 1940's. What I am describing here has been going on since at least the late 19th century. I think I should terminate my involvement in this thread. It seems that my presence here is only detracting from what would otherwise be a nice, mutually satisfactory exchange of opinions. Regrettably all opinions are not equal.