Keris Sundang Melayu with twist core

RSWORD · 26th June 2013, 12:46 AM

When considering outside possibilities in regards to twistcore influences in the Philippines I would toss in China. You find very fine twistcore blades in Chinese swords, both in double edge jian swords as well as single edge dao swords. The question, however, for both China as well as any Middle Eastern source, such as the Turkish Yataghan, is in how far back do you find examples with twistcore. In both the Turkish and Chinese examples, you are hard pressed to find examples that date prior to the 18th century. Perhaps you could stretch this back a century and say 17th century. So perhaps in the Phillipines, the "perfection" of twistcore may have been a Chinese influence from the 18th or 19th centuries. Of course, twistcore dates a long ways back. You find early Viking swords with complex and fine twistcore blades and they were a nautical bunch so who is to say that technology didn't find it's way half way around the world. Then again, where did the Vikings learn and develop such complicated twistcore technology. I'm pretty sure it wasn't ancient aliens as some US shows would like to hypothesize. But in any event, I'm rambling but it sure is a fun ramble!

A. G. Maisey · 26th June 2013, 02:35 AM

Yes, twisted manipulation of iron is not unique. In fact, it is one of the basic methods used in times past in a number of places to remove impurities from iron in order to make it fit for use.

However, when we consider these Philippine or Moro blades we have one window in time, and a very limited number of windows in opportunity to transfer skills.

Within the convergence of these two windows the highest probability of source lays with Jawa/Madura. This probability is strengthened by the knowledgeable appraisal of the style and technique of manufacture.

Here we have the difference between possibility and probability:-

anything is possible, only a very limited number of things can ever be probable.

Gustav · 26th June 2013, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

So perhaps in the Phillipines, the "perfection" of twistcore may have been a Chinese influence from the 18th or 19th centuries. Of course, twistcore dates a long ways back. You find early Viking swords with complex and fine twistcore blades and they were a nautical bunch so who is to say that technology didn't find it's way half way around the world. Then again, where did the Vikings learn and develop such complicated twistcore technology. I'm pretty sure it wasn't ancient aliens as some US shows would like to hypothesize.

The aliens were, as in most cases in Europe, the Romans. One of the best sources for roman swords with elaborate welding patterns is the moor of Illerup. If you try to search "Illerup Adal swords", you perhaps will find something. There is also a very good book in two volumes.

Yet the most likeable, actually undisputable origin of twistcore and other elaborate patterns is the Middle East. The Romans adapted this technique only after the wars with Parthians, together with longer swords.

A. G. Maisey · 26th June 2013, 12:04 PM

Heaps of stuff out there.

Have a talk to Dr. Google

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom...eich-0508.html

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...swords&f=false

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=me...w=1280&bih=907

26th June 2013, 12:46 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,089	When considering outside possibilities in regards to twistcore influences in the Philippines I would toss in China. You find very fine twistcore blades in Chinese swords, both in double edge jian swords as well as single edge dao swords. The question, however, for both China as well as any Middle Eastern source, such as the Turkish Yataghan, is in how far back do you find examples with twistcore. In both the Turkish and Chinese examples, you are hard pressed to find examples that date prior to the 18th century. Perhaps you could stretch this back a century and say 17th century. So perhaps in the Phillipines, the "perfection" of twistcore may have been a Chinese influence from the 18th or 19th centuries. Of course, twistcore dates a long ways back. You find early Viking swords with complex and fine twistcore blades and they were a nautical bunch so who is to say that technology didn't find it's way half way around the world. Then again, where did the Vikings learn and develop such complicated twistcore technology. I'm pretty sure it wasn't ancient aliens as some US shows would like to hypothesize. But in any event, I'm rambling but it sure is a fun ramble!

26th June 2013, 02:35 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Yes, twisted manipulation of iron is not unique. In fact, it is one of the basic methods used in times past in a number of places to remove impurities from iron in order to make it fit for use. However, when we consider these Philippine or Moro blades we have one window in time, and a very limited number of windows in opportunity to transfer skills. Within the convergence of these two windows the highest probability of source lays with Jawa/Madura. This probability is strengthened by the knowledgeable appraisal of the style and technique of manufacture. Here we have the difference between possibility and probability:- anything is possible, only a very limited number of things can ever be probable.

26th June 2013, 12:04 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Heaps of stuff out there. Have a talk to Dr. Google http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom...eich-0508.html http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...swords&f=false http://www.google.com.au/search?q=me...w=1280&bih=907