Question: Chinese spears

[KuKulzA28]

Thanks Timo and Neil!

Yes I have seen the various names listed in 長鎗法選 but I wasn't sure what the English names are... for example I doubt a wood dealer in my area would know what a cow pound wood is... hell I don't know either. So I was hoping someone could point me to their english names or the scientific names. Large bamboo doesn't grow much around here, and long bamboo poles and shipping can be expensive... but it may be worth it cause as you noted, they are naturally tapered.

I'm a bit confused. I have heard of a 白蜡杆, which is apparently used for spears and poles/staves. However, I have seen that translated as Chinese ash, and as white waxwood. Fraxinus/ash does usually make for quality spearshafts... but so does thick enough waxwood apparently (I've only ever seen flimsy wushu ones being sold, sadly). 白蜡 literally translated to white wax... but here they say it's ash.



For now I have a 7' ash pole which I can painstakingly taper with a knife if I so choose.

Anyone know of a good source of quality waxwood poles?

I have never seen an antique chinese spear with a butt-spike or butt-cap either, but I would imagine they existed...

Hmm, so would the tassels be a newer Qing dynasty innovation?
I wouldn't rule that out... I mean, Chinese cold weaponry did not stop developing in the Qing, in fact I think there were interesting shifts, such as the big popularity of double blades (double jian, double dao, butterfly swords), the innovation of the ox-tail saber, and the widespread use of the da-dao as an official weapon, symbol of Chinese nationalism, and a symbol of the older days of the Ming dynasty, etc.

[fearn]

So far as waxwood goes, it also depends on the diameter. The one I handled was well over one inch thick at the butt, and its problem was that it was too heavy, not that it bent. According to my teacher at the time, he'd had a heck of a time cutting and smoothing it, because it was so hard.

The Muye Dobo Tongji (available in English as Sang Kim's Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts of Ancient Korea) has a lot to say about what makes a good spear, and much of it seems to be good. AFAIK, the material originally comes from Chinese sources. One important point is that you don't want an unbending spear, because it will be quite good at transmitting shock into your hands if you hit anything. A shaft that springs a little will make you much happier.

You can also get some good advice from Society for Creative Anachronism sources.

The final bit of advice is that the longest spear you want is something that can fit in your car, which is probably no more than about seven feet tip to butt. There's a nice trick to laying a spear down beside the passenger-side seats that you'd do well to learn, and I'd also suggest making a sheath, so that you don't put a hole in your car when you stop suddenly. You can, of course, make it longer, but then you'll need the red tassel, because the end is going to be hanging out in traffic. I personally have a modern spear that's a shade under 7" long, and it's a great length for practicing indoors and possibly home defense.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Hmm, so would the tassels be a newer Qing dynasty innovation?
I wouldn't rule that out... I mean, Chinese cold weaponry did not stop developing in the Qing, in fact I think there were interesting shifts, such as the big popularity of double blades (double jian, double dao, butterfly swords), the innovation of the ox-tail saber, and the widespread use of the da-dao as an official weapon, symbol of Chinese nationalism, and a symbol of the older days of the Ming dynasty, etc.

I think some of these changes were a result of civilianisation of weapons. The military weapons were cannon for artillery, spear and musket for infantry, and bow and sword for cavalry. The military solution to a spear is another spear, or arrow or bullet.

What is the civilian solution to a spear? Either carry your own spear, but that isn't convenient. So carry a double weapon. Double dao is much better against a spear than a single dao. Much easier to carry than a spear. So a good civilian solution, given the knowledge of how to use it, and hopefully one doesn't run into a skilled spearman.

The oxtail dao is optimised for slicing unarmoured opponents. Good for the civilian martial artist. In principle, it might have made for a nice light cavalry sword, but was not adopted as such.

I don't know if or how dadao fit into this.

Increased dependence on militia blurs the lines between civilian and military, and contributed to this civilianisation of arms.

[KuKulzA28]

fearn, the car advice is gold, thanks
I will need to get myself a few waxwood shafts...
Good point about the rigidity vs flexibility thing, I think my ash pole should be flexible enough.

I heard of Muye Dobo Tongji. I haven't read a translation myself however. I have seen the youtube videos, and they seem to be doing a good job researching and reviving the ancient tradition.


Timo, great points. Aside from the the civilization of weapons, I think also the growing reliance of militias during a time of increasing ineptitude in government means also that local martial arts could have had growing influence over the armaments of the locals. Not to mention the diffusion of martial arts styles as well... for example, the Plum Blossom spear form being found in Hung Gar, far south of its origins in Shandong I think...


EDIT: slightly off-topic, but... for those who have read the 長鎗法選 or a translation of it, what are they referring to in terms of inner circle and outer circle? Perhaps I know what they are referring to but not their terminology...

[Timo Nieminen]

The relevant spear material from Muye Dobo Tongji. This is from the Kim translation, and the Chinese is not available, only the English. I believe this is translated into English from a Korean translation, rather than directly from the original Chinese.

(a) The best wood is yew. Spruce is too flexible, and bamboo is too soft.

(b) Jillyo wood is best, then mulberry, then armor maple. Nothing else can be used.

(c) The best wood is jumok (ju wood, might be white oak), then bipa wood which is similar to oak, then palm tree.

A couple of other woods are named (only Korean names are given). From the further description, one might be white waxwood.

Jillyo might be 柘條木 (zhe wood), it is described as thorny.

Bamboo pole and laminated bamboo spears were used.

Butt spikes are used. Pointed, and copper (bronze?). All spears, except bamboo spears, are shown with butt spikes in the illustrations.

[Timo Nieminen]

Spears in Qing art. Source: This (and the rest of the volumes) is the source.

(a) 18th century, Luoluo people in Yunnan. Spears about 8' long, heads might be single-edged. Steel/iron butt spikes.

(b) 1793, war against Gurkhas. Spears are about 10' long, heads are long, maybe 10" blades, parallel sides. Red tassels at base of head, no butt spikes.

(c) 1829, suppression of rebellion in Xinjiang. Spears as above.

(d) Some enlarged details of some paintings are shown, but the sources are not given. One series, which appear to be about the defeat of the Zunghars, has spears of about 10', red tassels, diamond-shaped heads. In other details, spears are shown with no tassels, a sleeve about the blade end of the haft, and butt spikes.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

slightly off-topic, but... for those who have read the 長鎗法選 or a translation of it, what are they referring to in terms of inner circle and outer circle? Perhaps I know what they are referring to but not their terminology...

Centre and periphery, I think. If you hold the spear with right hand forwards, the spear is to your left. A thrust coming in on the right of your spear is in your inner circle. A thrust coming in on the left of your spear (perhaps to face or left shoulder) would be in your outer circle. Think of "inner circle" as the space between your spear haft and your body. Outside that is the outer circle. For the grip above, with spear on left, I don't if outer circle includes the right side of the body (so the whole torso), or only the left side (i.e., the side closer to the spear).

[KuKulzA28]

Seems like butt-caps/spikes come and go...

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Centre and periphery, I think. If you hold the spear with right hand forwards, the spear is to your left. A thrust coming in on the right of your spear is in your inner circle. A thrust coming in on the left of your spear (perhaps to face or left shoulder) would be in your outer circle. Think of "inner circle" as the space between your spear haft and your body. Outside that is the outer circle. For the grip above, with spear on left, I don't if outer circle includes the right side of the body (so the whole torso), or only the left side (i.e., the side closer to the spear).

My impression was similar to yours that it was something like this

[fearn]

The same inside/outside division shows up in some old European texts, if I remember right. Basically, the front of your body (guts, groin, chest) is on the inside, and your back and butt are on the outside. Since with a spear, you are standing with one foot forward, this divides each side into left and right. I think the "circle" is meant metaphorically, rather than literally.

From reading bits of the English translation (http://www.chineselongsword.com/speartranslation.shtml), I'd say that the general idea is that inside/outside are based on which foot is forward, which varies depending on which stance you are in and where the front of your body is facing. It appears to assume that your opponent is standing with right foot forward, but that's just in the free samples they provide.

I'd take their spear descriptions and illustrations with a small boulder of salt. The spears described are the equivalent of European pikes, but the pictures show a spear about two meters long. They're somewhat different weapons, so be careful.

Another point is that the video with the translation should be watched carefully. In particular, pay attention to how often the demonstrator locks his elbow (bad idea), where the blade is (there's one point where he chops with the flat of the blade). Also note that his feet are reversed in the "end stance" (in bagua, you steal a step by bringing your back foot behind your front foot, because you can do so without moving your upper body. You can then lunge forward with some faint possibility of surprise), and ask whether he can generate any power with that bizarre back leg with the toe pointed back (the illustration could equally show someone with front toes forward, back toes out 90 degrees, or the classic fencing stance). The "jolt the legs" phrase is probably best interpreted as using your legs and back to power the spear, rather than using only your arm muscles. Spears are heavy, and legs are strong.

My personal favorite introduction to the spear is from Cold Steel (www.coldsteel.com/files/Riposte/The-Spear.pdf). It demystifies spears in a hurry, and it has the bonus of being free.

My 0.0000002 cents,

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

The same inside/outside division shows up in some old European texts, if I remember right. Basically, the front of your body (guts, groin, chest) is on the inside, and your back and butt are on the outside. Since with a spear, you are standing with one foot forward, this divides each side into left and right. I think the "circle" is meant metaphorically, rather than literally.

Hmm, that sounds like something my shigong has told me, in swordplay, that the front is the "tiger side" and the back is the "dragon side"... and in fist-fighting (or any melee combat) there's various advantages to taking the opponent's center-line (tiger-side/inside) or going to their outside and flanking them. Perhaps this is what they are referrign to like you said...

Originally Posted by fearn

I'd take their spear descriptions and illustrations with a small boulder of salt. The spears described are the equivalent of European pikes, but the pictures show a spear about two meters long. They're somewhat different weapons, so be careful.

I did notice that. Not sure why the artist would have depicted the spears so short when they were meant to be training with a spear about 10.6' in length.

Originally Posted by fearn

Another point is that the video with the translation should be watched carefully. In particular, pay attention to how often the demonstrator locks his elbow (bad idea), where the blade is (there's one point where he chops with the flat of the blade). Also note that his feet are reversed in the "end stance" (in bagua, you steal a step by bringing your back foot behind your front foot, because you can do so without moving your upper body. You can then lunge forward with some faint possibility of surprise), and ask whether he can generate any power with that bizarre back leg with the toe pointed back (the illustration could equally show someone with front toes forward, back toes out 90 degrees, or the classic fencing stance). The "jolt the legs" phrase is probably best interpreted as using your legs and back to power the spear, rather than using only your arm muscles. Spears are heavy, and legs are strong.

I am personally unsure about the translators videos. Like you've pointed out, some of his interpretation seems awkward, clumsy, or strange. It also seems very rigid, he can definitely demonstrate slowly without making it "blocky". But all the same, I am thankful someone is taking the time and effort to translate these old manuals.