INDONESIAN KERIS: Aesthetic and Philosophical Meaning

[ariel]

I am in the business of writing and publishing books and peer-reviewed articles. I know most of the people in my field. Let me assure you that GPs from rural hospitals and undergraduate students do not publish books.


There are books that interest me and books that do not. I might skip the latter ones: I also value my time. But we are not talking about providing constructive critique: the issue is the manner of critiquing.

” No, and I have no wish to see it. All these books are written by people who understand next to nothing about the keris and they all repeat one another’s errors.”

“It’s a pity that people don’t learn about keris before they begin to write about them.”



Neither myself nor any respectable specialist in the field I know would utter such snide remarks about a book without even bothering to read it and point out specific reasons for their critique. Most importantly, no one I know and respect would insult the authors. This is spiteful, undignified and self-aggrandizing. If the "authority", who denigrated both the author and the book, is publishing his own on the same subject, one can cast legitimate doubts about his real motives.


In my professional community, people who engage in such behavior, acquire bad reputation and lose a lot of respect, despite being "elevated beyond the highest position in their chosen professions".

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

Neither myself nor any respectable specialist in the field I know would utter such snide remarks about a book without even bothering to read it and point out specific reasons for their critique. Most importantly, no one I know and respect would insult the authors. This is spiteful, undignified and self-aggrandizing. If the "authority", who denigrated both the author and the book, is publishing his own on the same subject, one can cast legitimate doubts about his real motives.

Ariel, obviously haven't read too many books on keris. What would you think if, say, Salvador Dali (yes, i know he is dead) said something similar in regards to the latest book on the Surrealist movement in art?
The gentlemen whose quotes you find so disrespectful are not just specialists in the field, they sort of are the field. I hope you can see the difference.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by David

Ariel, obviously haven't read too many books on keris. What would you think if, say, Salvador Dali (yes, i know he is dead) said something similar in regards to the latest book on the Surrealist movement in art?
The gentlemen whose quotes you find so disrespectful are not just specialists in the field, they sort of are the field. I hope you can see the difference.

David, I have WRITTEN more books , book chapters and articles than you have ever READ :-)

This is not the first snarky remark you have directed at me. Please reconsider this attitude in the future.

As to Dali, or any empu you have in mind, - no personal achievements in a particular professional area are an excuse of rude behavior.

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

David, I have WRITTEN more books , book chapters and articles than you have ever READ :-)

This is not the first snarky remark you have directed at me. Please reconsider this attitude in the future.

As to Dali, or any empu you have in mind, - no personal achievements in a particular professional area are an excuse of rude behavior.

Ariel, there is nothing at all "snarky" in my commentary. It is direct and straight forward. Perhaps you could list for me all the books on keris that you have indeed read to date. Frankly i could care less about how many books you have written. If they were truly of any interest to me i would have read them by now.
I am sorry that you have somehow interpreted what i have written as an attack on you personally. My point was that if you had read a number of these keris books you would have a better perspective on how the same old incorrect information is recycled again and again in these publications and have a better understanding of why an Mpu might well disregard them.
My point about Dali was not one of "personal achievement". I was trying to point out the difference between the source/creator and those who set themselves up as experts who claim to understand and/or explain the source/creation. Dali is a creator of Surrealism (one might even argue that he personifies the movement), not simply some academic who claims to understand it. Likewise an Mpu is the artist/priest who actually brings the keris into being. And the making of keris on this level is more than simply a profession. This is not a matter of simply forging a blade as a ordinary blade smith would. I think this places the Mpu in a unique position to be critical.
Lastly let me leave you with something to consider. If you think you have been slighted, delve a bit more before taking me to task in a public forum. Put your ego in check and send me a PM first or if you think that gets you no where complain to another Mod or even Lee. This forum is not the place for you to air your grievances or attempt to start a pissing match. Please consider that in the future.

[Jean]

Gentlemen,
I feel sad to watch this interesting discussion ending in personal arguments.
Could we please come back to the original question: Has anybody got the opportunity to read or at least see the book in question: "Keris Indonesia: Estetika dan Makna Filosofi" or the other new book "Keris Kuno: Estetika, Simbol, dan Fisafat" and what would be his opinion and recommedation for acquiring them or not?
Best regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Gentlemen,
I feel sad to watch this interesting discussion ending in personal arguments.
Could we please come back to the original question: Has anybody got the opportunity to read or at least see the book in question: "Keris Indonesia: Estetika dan Makna Filosofi" or the other new book "Keris Kuno: Estetika, Simbol, dan Fisafat" and what would be his opinion and recommedation for acquiring them or not?
Best regards

Jean, there is no "argument" here nor is this discussion at an end if members have new information to add to it. I am afraid that Patrick never returned an answer to my first two questions to him.
1. Have you read the book then?
2. What makes it a "very good book" for you?
So i guess we can extend those questions to others. However, if no one here has read these books then we have very little to move forward with.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by David

...... if no one here has read these books then we have very little to move forward with.

A very healthy attitude.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ariel, as I have already remarked:- I enjoy reading your posts; you have a style that is quite unique in this Forum and that does make a change from the usual warm, touchy-feely comradeship that characterises most participants in our discussions here. I like a little bit of colour in discussion. There is nothing quite so refreshing as seeing a CEO begin to froth at the mouth during a board meeting because he feels some other member of the board has slighted him. Even though some of us might sound like a CEO at times, I'm not suggesting that you, nor any of us here are in fact CEO's or in attendance at a board meeting, but sometimes vitriol can become a source of amusement.

If one thing in this world is true, it is that we can never change the behaviour of another person, but we can change our own.

I do apologise to you for my overly long posts. I often find that I need to make the Mark Twain plea:- "forgive me for the long letter, I did not have time to write a short one". I'm sure that as an experienced writer you would understand exactly the problems of presentation that is both accurate and concise, and since we are relaxing here, not producing words in hope of financial reward, nor enhancement of reputation, I am equally sure you will forgive my verbosity.

However, had my previous post dealing with societal variation been shorter, you might have read it, and having read it you may have given consideration to the points I attempted to make, and possibly even have come to an understanding of those points. Clearly this did not happen, for had you considered what I presented in that post, being the intelligent, educated man that you are, you would have realised that the standards of behaviour that apply in New York, London, and even here in the antipodes, are not necessarily the standards of behaviour that apply in other places on earth. Most certainly, the standards that you consider to be proper are not necessarily the standards that are considered to be proper in Jawa.

Let me give you an example:- let us imagine that you have entered the Golden Arches to indulge yourself in a Big Mac; in New York, or anywhere else in the conglomerate of western societies, you would expect that payment for your Big Mac offered with the left hand would be gratefully accepted, and rightly so. But if you offered payment with the left hand in Jawa you would find that the vast bulk of well-mannered people in that part of the world would refuse your payment and indicate for you to place it on the counter. It goes further than this:- if you attempted to accept your change with your left hand it could well be tossed in your general direction.
You see, in Jawa, and a number of other places, the left hand is considered to be foul, and may not be used to either give or receive; to do so indicates that you are either incredibly ill-mannered or simply a fool and not to be accorded the respect due to a civilised person. To proffer the left hand to another person is deemed to be not only ill-mannered, but in some circumstances may be considered an insult that could require further action.

You see Ariel, your standards, and I guess mine also, when I am in my home country are quite different to the standards of people who live in different societies to our own.

Because of this we must never pass judgement upon what is acceptable behaviour in some other society by measuring that behaviour against our own standards.

So where am I going with this?

Once again you have decided that you are qualified to arbitrate upon standards of behaviour:-

"--- any empu you have in mind, - no personal achievements in a particular professional area are an excuse of rude behavior."

Regrettably Ariel, in this instance you are quite incorrect; that which you have determined is rude behaviour would not be considered so in the society where we find Javanese empus --- any more so than your payment for a Big Mac offered with your left hand would be considered impolite in New York.

May I most humbly suggest that before you pass judgement upon what is correct behaviour in a society that differs from your own, that you spend just a little time in gaining some knowledge of that society.

[David]

Originally Posted by David

I am afraid that Patrick never returned an answer to my first two questions to him.
1. Have you read the book then?
2. What makes it a "very good book" for you?
So i guess we can extend those questions to others. However, if no one here has read these books then we have very little to move forward with.

I see Patrick still has not returned to this post to respond to my questions.
So, let's get down to what this thread is really all about. We still don't know if Patrick has read this book or not or what makes a "very good book" on keris for him, but here is what i do know.
1. Patrick is a long time keris dealer who regularly sells on eBay (nothing wrong with that).
2. Patrick is now selling this book on eBay.
3. Patrick's only other post since becoming a member last November was to praise another keris book which he also sells.
4. It seems that a "very good book" for Patrick is one that will earn him money.

So what this thread really boils down to is this; an advertisement for a new book. This is what i suspected at first, but still i let this thread go on, hopeful that it would become a discussion on the actual merits of the book. I would like to encourage that we do have real and substantial discussion of books written on the subject....that is, when we have members who have actually read the books in question. However, the use of this forum as means to promote commercial activities will not be tolerated. Period!
If someone gets a hold of this (or any book on keris) and wants to start a thread discussing it's merit or faults i wholeheartedly support that. Please bring to that conversation details and reasoning so that a useful discussion about the book can follow. If, on the other hand, you are simply hawking your wares, please find another forum for your activities.
Thread closed.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your detailed response Ariel.

I find it an intensely interesting response because it very probably is an accurate reflection of the world and profession that you know, and I guess, know very well. As such, I can appreciate your point of view and considered in the light of the society and background that has helped you produce these remarks, I can probably endorse them.

However, as extensive as it may be, your background and experience do not equip you for an informed opinion on matters that apply to either the World of the Keris or Javanese society, ethics and modes of behaviour in general. The overwhelming difference between Javanese society on all its levels and the society which has helped to provide your experience, and given you the necessary foundation to enable you to form opinions is that Javanese society is a society that is based upon hierarchical principles, even now in the 21st century at least two levels of speech are in common use, the hierarchically superior person using the lower level of speech and "speaking down" to the person who sits below him in the hierarchy. To act in any other way would be to act in a way that was totally gauche in this society. It quite simply would not be understood and would be viewed at the very least as an eccentricity.

Now, within Javanese society the World of the Keris is perhaps the most traditional of all the sub-sectors of this society. The keris, the wayang, the Court, these are all corner-posts of traditional society, as such the Javaneseness of these sectors is magnified in comparison with the standards that apply with the greater body of society.

Within a society based upon hierarchical principles that in effect reflect the standards of a bygone feudal age the leaders of that society have not only the right, but the obligation to act in a way that reinforces their superior hierarchical position. To fail to fulfil the expectations of those below them on the societal ladder would result in undermining the very foundations of the sector of society of which they are a part.

You regard the remarks I have repeated as snide.

In the context of present day Australian society I may well do the same, however over a very lengthy period I have made the effort to gain an understanding of the way in which Javanese society functions, and within the context of that society I cannot regard these remarks as being in any way snide, nor as being anything less than would be expected of men who have a status that approximates that of Gods. Gods make their own rules, and mostly they are not known for having very forgiving natures. In a hierarchical society, those who do not behave in the manner expected of them soon find that they are replaced by more lowly placed people who have no hesitation in using every means at their disposal to climb the ladder to a higher position.

In Java, and possibly in Indonesia in general, the way which we function in American, Australian and other societies with an Anglo heritage, would see us buried in very short order, and being regarded as fools into the bargain. In Rome we act as do the Romans.

Ariel, I have reviewed your posts to this Forum over a very lengthy period, and I have found that overall your remarks are well constructed and often very well informed. I like your posts and often will read them even though they deal with subjects about which I know nothing.

The remarks that I have reported in a previous post were made within the context of a very traditional sub-sector of a society that is organised in accordance with completely different principles to the ones with which you are familiar.

I accept that within the context of the society with which you are familiar, you, personally, may find these remarks to be less than admirable.
However, I most humbly suggest that before you take it upon yourself to pass judgement upon the nature of the remarks which I have reported, you take the time, and make the effort to gain at least the beginning of an understanding of the societal context in which these remarks were made.

Your assurance that people who are placed upon a relatively lowly level in the medical profession do not publish books reinforces precisely the point I was attempting to make:- if one is recognised as being extremely unlikely to possess any worthwhile knowledge, one is best advised to refrain from providing others with his as yet inadequate opinions by the publication of books that contain no new or worthwhile information.

EDIT

I just now noticed your comment on this matter of "snide" remarks David.

Your point of view had not occurred to me, but you are of course absolutely correct. Even in our own societies there are people who are so universally respected and whose knowledge and ability is so far in advance of any others that not only are they exempted from the rules that apply to the rest of us, we mere mortals more or less expect these luminaries to act and react in a way that is simply not available to the rest of us.

EDIT II

Ariel, there's probably something else I should mention in respect of this keris book matter we've been discussing, and that is the sheer cost of the present crop of coffee table publications that keep coming out of Indonesia.

These are heavy books, by the time you add cost of postage or transport of the book to the original $100 or so price tag, cost can easily double.

I've been very fortunate, because a generous friend has given a number of these books to me as gifts, but if it were not for his generosity, I doubt that I would have seen these books. The cost would quite simply deter me. I'm in a position where I can get probably any book published in Indonesia that I really want, but for people who do not share my resources the actual acquisition of these books can be almost impossible. It is just not all that easy to do business with Indonesian booksellers.

So, by the time we measure cost + plus difficulty of acquisition against gain in knowledge the bottom line does not really show any profit.

I do enjoy looking at the pics in any of these books that I've seen, but the inaccuracies and plain misinformation that is contained in most of the more recent productions would not seem to encourage anybody looking for knowledge to purchase them. There have been notable exceptions to this, "Keris Jawa", Keris Bali", Tony Junus' book, but many of the other books have unvetted captions that could probably be considered as no more than bad advertising copy. This type of thing does educate, but perhaps not in the way that we might desire.

Even "Keris Bali" is more notable for its superb photo presentation than for anything that can be found in the text.

There is another thing too, one that I do not feel at liberty to expand upon, but the philosophy behind the writing and publication of a book in Indonesia, particularly a book that deals with an area of knowledge that is connected to money, is completely different to the philosophy of book production in western society. A western writer in most cases will seek to impart knowledge , in some other societies this is not necessarily so.

The whole thing gets back to what I was trying to express earlier:- we simply cannot measure the standards that apply in another society against the standards that apply in our own.