Unusual kris with shell guard

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by VVV

However, I disagree that Carlos' kris so obviously has the same blade features as the one in the museum and Barry's.
The last two have (1) separate ganya, (2) a more "kris-like" elephant trunk and greneng as well as (3) overall a higher resemblance to Moro kris blades.
It would be great to read for instance Jon's opinion of this blade, too?
The reason I thought it resembled Panay kris was feature 2) and 3).
Michael

Michael, please take a closer look at the features of the base of blade at Carlos', museum's and Barry's kris.

For description of them I will use the Javanese terminology, becouse it is the most complete and most familiar one. I have chosen the picture of Barry's kris, becouse it is the single one most correct picture to analyse the features.

The way Kembang (Sekar) Kacang/Tikel Alis/Blumbangan/Gandhik/Jalen Area is arranged on all three krisses is almost identical and absolutely sufficient to understand them as the same variety (arrow 1):

Tikel Alis falls extremely deep into the Blumbangan (you will never see something similar on other krisses or kerisses), actually it falls deeper then the point where Jalen starts; the outer ridge of Tikel Alis continues the Tampingan; Gandhik is an extremely falling/sloping one; the way Kembang Kacang is cut is very similar if not identical, despite Carlos' kris not having a Jenggot.

A very interesting point is the indentation on Gonjo (arrow 2). It seems not to reserved for a clamp (like on Moro krisses), becouse it continues the (falling)Tampingan perfectly. A purely esthetical pupose?

The Kepet Urang (Buntut Mimi) of Gonjo (arrow 3) is bent up (or perhaps carved this way on museum's kris), something that does not appear often on Moro kris.


I must say, Carlos' kris is perhaps the crudest one of these three: there is a material left for Greneng and Jenggot, yet these these aren't cut out; no separate Gonjo.


All three krisses are narrow, the waved ones (Carlos' and museum's) do have the same kind of waves with long tip.

I also don't understand, why do you say Barry's kris has overall a higher resemblance to Moro kris blades. Actually, becouse of Wangun (widening of the blade towards the tip), its overall shape doesn't resemble a straight Moro kris at all.

To your examples: I don't see much similarities with the three former krisses, actually almost none. The Ebay example is superficially similar, becouse of more elaborate features, yet that's all. The Kembang Kacang/Tikel Alis/Blumbangan/Gandhik/Jalen Area is completely different worked, these is also a huge Bawang Sebungkul-like feature missing in all three former examples. The overall shape of the kris is a completely other one.

For the second example, I miss any similarity.

The third example has Moro/Javanese inspired Greneng, bent (or worked like it) Kepet Urang (like arrow 3) and the indentation on Gonjo (like arrow 2), yet here I think possibly has been a clamp. Here are some similarities, yet by far not so close as in-between the former three krisses.

A diagram for the features of base of blade:

http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

[VVV]

Gustav, thanks for taking your time writing such a good explanation.
I can see that my references were not as clear as I hoped so maybe I should have skipped them altogether (or maybe only included #3).

What I wanted to show was that, especially, the elephant trunk area (your arrow 1) on Carlos' kris is quite crudely done, something that is also found on the kris blades from Panay.
It seems from your description like you have the same impression of Carlos' kris, but not the other krisses, on this part?
The blade did not strike me as Moro, and never having heard about the Bicolano kris production before this, combined with the other features, made me suspect Panay. A proven kris producing area which is quite close to Bicol, too.
This is getting more and more interesting and I hope someone soon will be able to find some reference on the existence of local kris production in Bicol.

Michael

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by VVV

What I wanted to show was that, especially, the elephant trunk area (your arrow 1) on Carlos' kris is quite crudely done, something that is also found on the kris blades from Panay.
It seems from your description like you have the same impression of Carlos' kris, but not the other krisses, on this part?

Michael

Michael, you certainly are correct. Even if we would suppose, the Carlos' kris would have lost some substance due to some rust cleaning/resharpening, it is much crudely done from beginning on.

It's a pity we don't have closer pictures of museum's kris, which appears to be better crafted and in good condition.

[Battara]

Ok regarding the Bicol piece not being or being a form of kris, I guess I need to see the whole blade.

[kai]

Hello Jose,

Here the one from the Spanish museum.

How about the other two examples from Carlos and Barry?

Regards,
Kai

[Robert]

This the best that I can do. Hope it is of some help.

Best,
Robert

[carlos]

New pictures from the tang and place from missing ferrule ?
Best regards and thanks all for information
carlos

[kai]

Hello Michael,

Thanks for posting examples - I need to screen my references and will get back to you on Panay/Visayan pieces.

Originally Posted by VVV

Gustav, thanks for taking your time writing such a good explanation.

Yeah, thanks for elaborating on my terse exposition, Gustav!

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

Just for reference: a thread, which handles weapons with similar handles and hand guards:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=parang+nabur