Unusual kris with shell guard

[VVV]

Congratulations!!!

A very exciting find.
The blade reminds me of a Panay kris and the hilt and guard of the Bicolano Minasbad?
I look forward to read the comments of those specialized in Filipino blades...

Michael

[Robert]

Carlos, I am again very jealous of your new find. What a beautiful and unique piece. I was just looking for a specific photo of one particular minisbad that I was to post for comparison because like Michael I too believe that the hilt and guard bears a striking resemblance to ones found on swords from Bicol. Again, my congratulations on you new acquisition.


Best,
Robert

[Gustav]

It's the time in the year to post Barry's kris again :


http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000669.html

[Battara]

No argument from me a out what has been said so far. I will only add that the clam guard looks European on origin all the way through. Lots of trade and captured pieces with mixed parts.

[Gustav]

Looking at the features at the bade of the blade, the kris from museum is clearly the same blade type, and also a hilt with spiral:

[Robert]

Photo of guards for better comparison.


Robert

[David]

Please forgive me for what i am about to say Carlos and remember that what is most important about anything you collect is that you like it. But with everybody remarking about the beauty of this piece i simply must state that i find it to be awkward and ugly. This pieces just don't belong together, even if there is another example in the Spanish Army Museum.
I will agree that this is a not a Moro blade and that it certainly is unusual. Michael may well be onto the origin with this kris.

[carlos]

Originally Posted by David

Please forgive me for what i am about to say Carlos and remember that what is most important about anything you collect is that you like it. But with everybody remarking about the beauty of this piece i simply must state that i find it to be awkward and ugly. This pieces just don't belong together, even if there is another example in the Spanish Army Museum.
I will agree that this is a not a Moro blade and that it certainly is unusual. Michael may well be onto the origin with this kris.

hello David
All opinions ae wellcome !! I love this type of edged weapons, mixture between 2 cultures.
Best regards
Carlos

[kai]

Hello Michael,

The blade reminds me of a Panay kris and

I am convinced that all 3 blades are of local (Bicolano) production.

Do you have any pics of Panay/Visayan kris blades with similar base features? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

[VANDOO]

THERE ARE SEVERAL SIMULARITYS AMONG THESE KRIS. TWO APPEAR TO HAVE HANDLES CARVED FROM WATERBUFFALOW HORN AND HAVE THE SPIRAL CARVED GRIP WHICH IS LIKELY TO HAVE HAD TWISTED SILVER WIRE AND PERHAPS SILVER BANDS AS IN MY KRIS. I CAN'T TELL IF THE EXAMPLE IN THE SPANISH MUSEUM IS HORN OR WOOD. THE FILE WORK ON THE ELEPHANT TRUNK/ BIRD BEAK IS SIMULAR AS WELL AND A BIT DIFFERENT FROM MOST MORO FORMS.
MORO KRIS SELDOM HAVE HORN HANDLES ALTHOUGH SOME DO EXHIST. SILVER IS OFTEN USED BUT THE HANDLE GRIP ITS-SELF IS NOT CARVED IN A SPIRAL TO HOLD THE SILVER.
BEWARE CONJECTURE ITS POSSIBLE SOME SLAVES WERE CAPTURED AND LEARNED THE ART OF SWORD MAKEING AS SLAVES AND LATER AS APPRENTICES WHEN THEY EARNED THEIR FREEDOM. WHEN FREE SUCH INDIVIDUALS COULD HAVE RETURNED TO THEIR PEOPLE TO WORK, LOCAL INFLUENCES COULD HAVE BEEN INCORPORATED INTO THE WEAPONS MADE IN SUCH CASES. THIS COULD EXPLAIN SOME OF THE REGIONAL DIFFERENCES. THE TWO MAIN SOURCES OF INFLUENCE OF WHAT WE KNOW AS THE MORO KRIS IS MINDANAO AND MALAYSIA ALL VARIATIONS WOULD BE DRAWN FROM THESE TWO SOURCES. I THINK THE KRIS WITH A GAURD IS WAY COOL CONGRADULATIONS

[VVV]

Hello Kai,

Great input of all and I enjoy learning more about odd Filipino blades.
However, I disagree that Carlos' kris so obviously has the same blade features as the one in the museum and Barry's.
The last two have (1) separate ganya, (2) a more "kris-like" elephant trunk and greneng as well as (3) overall a higher resemblance to Moro kris blades.
It would be great to read for instance Jon's opinion of this blade, too?
The reason I thought it resembled Panay kris was feature 2) and 3).
But this in not my field and I look forward to be corrected on this...
I don't have a lot of reference pictures but here are some (non exactly resembling Carlos').
Maybe some other forumite have a more resembling kris?

1) From eBay 5 years ago
2) Panay 1
3) Panay 2 (check the trunk)

Michael

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by VVV

However, I disagree that Carlos' kris so obviously has the same blade features as the one in the museum and Barry's.
The last two have (1) separate ganya, (2) a more "kris-like" elephant trunk and greneng as well as (3) overall a higher resemblance to Moro kris blades.
It would be great to read for instance Jon's opinion of this blade, too?
The reason I thought it resembled Panay kris was feature 2) and 3).
Michael

Michael, please take a closer look at the features of the base of blade at Carlos', museum's and Barry's kris.

For description of them I will use the Javanese terminology, becouse it is the most complete and most familiar one. I have chosen the picture of Barry's kris, becouse it is the single one most correct picture to analyse the features.

The way Kembang (Sekar) Kacang/Tikel Alis/Blumbangan/Gandhik/Jalen Area is arranged on all three krisses is almost identical and absolutely sufficient to understand them as the same variety (arrow 1):

Tikel Alis falls extremely deep into the Blumbangan (you will never see something similar on other krisses or kerisses), actually it falls deeper then the point where Jalen starts; the outer ridge of Tikel Alis continues the Tampingan; Gandhik is an extremely falling/sloping one; the way Kembang Kacang is cut is very similar if not identical, despite Carlos' kris not having a Jenggot.

A very interesting point is the indentation on Gonjo (arrow 2). It seems not to reserved for a clamp (like on Moro krisses), becouse it continues the (falling)Tampingan perfectly. A purely esthetical pupose?

The Kepet Urang (Buntut Mimi) of Gonjo (arrow 3) is bent up (or perhaps carved this way on museum's kris), something that does not appear often on Moro kris.


I must say, Carlos' kris is perhaps the crudest one of these three: there is a material left for Greneng and Jenggot, yet these these aren't cut out; no separate Gonjo.


All three krisses are narrow, the waved ones (Carlos' and museum's) do have the same kind of waves with long tip.

I also don't understand, why do you say Barry's kris has overall a higher resemblance to Moro kris blades. Actually, becouse of Wangun (widening of the blade towards the tip), its overall shape doesn't resemble a straight Moro kris at all.

To your examples: I don't see much similarities with the three former krisses, actually almost none. The Ebay example is superficially similar, becouse of more elaborate features, yet that's all. The Kembang Kacang/Tikel Alis/Blumbangan/Gandhik/Jalen Area is completely different worked, these is also a huge Bawang Sebungkul-like feature missing in all three former examples. The overall shape of the kris is a completely other one.

For the second example, I miss any similarity.

The third example has Moro/Javanese inspired Greneng, bent (or worked like it) Kepet Urang (like arrow 3) and the indentation on Gonjo (like arrow 2), yet here I think possibly has been a clamp. Here are some similarities, yet by far not so close as in-between the former three krisses.

A diagram for the features of base of blade:

http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

[VVV]

Gustav, thanks for taking your time writing such a good explanation.
I can see that my references were not as clear as I hoped so maybe I should have skipped them altogether (or maybe only included #3).

What I wanted to show was that, especially, the elephant trunk area (your arrow 1) on Carlos' kris is quite crudely done, something that is also found on the kris blades from Panay.
It seems from your description like you have the same impression of Carlos' kris, but not the other krisses, on this part?
The blade did not strike me as Moro, and never having heard about the Bicolano kris production before this, combined with the other features, made me suspect Panay. A proven kris producing area which is quite close to Bicol, too.
This is getting more and more interesting and I hope someone soon will be able to find some reference on the existence of local kris production in Bicol.

Michael

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by VVV

What I wanted to show was that, especially, the elephant trunk area (your arrow 1) on Carlos' kris is quite crudely done, something that is also found on the kris blades from Panay.
It seems from your description like you have the same impression of Carlos' kris, but not the other krisses, on this part?

Michael

Michael, you certainly are correct. Even if we would suppose, the Carlos' kris would have lost some substance due to some rust cleaning/resharpening, it is much crudely done from beginning on.

It's a pity we don't have closer pictures of museum's kris, which appears to be better crafted and in good condition.

[kai]

Hello Michael,

Thanks for posting examples - I need to screen my references and will get back to you on Panay/Visayan pieces.

Originally Posted by VVV

Gustav, thanks for taking your time writing such a good explanation.

Yeah, thanks for elaborating on my terse exposition, Gustav!

Regards,
Kai