Manual del Baratero - A Review

[Robert Gray]

Chris

Thank you for your reply - Again it makes good sense, though I am still
intrigued by knife fighting systems derived from fencing. Any comments?

Regards
Robert

[Robert Gray]

Frank

Thanks for those comments. It supports the views of Chris

Regards
Robert

[Chris Evans]

Hi Robert,

When you ask about knife fighting systems derived from fencing, you have to stipulate what type of fencing you have in mind.

Sword play has two distinctly different forms, technically known as that of `single time' and `double time', `time' meaning a distinct phase or movement. Spanish knife dueling, indeed most knife dueling, parallels early sword play . What has to be kept in mind however, is that unlike with swords, fencing with knives will not deliver a victory through the application of mere techniques, as there is much left to chance and other factors. To a lesser extent this also applied to early sword play and was the driving force behind its eventual evolution towards the more scientific `double time' play, which provides a more reliable fight; One that is less dependent on luck and tricks and also less prone to the mutual double hits, entanglements and bloody wrestling matches that plagued rapier and broadsword fights.

For a brief explanation of the two styles I reproduce here an extract from a paper that I wrote some time ago on the rapier. I also would like to draw attention to that early rapier fencing was technically fairly simple relying greatly on the preparation of attacks and attendant deceits and for parrying on a left hand implement was used. Later rapier play was still conducted in `single time' but became a good deal more reliant on the use of the blade for other than just delivering thrusts or cuts. Nevertheless, sword play only attained its current complexity and sophistication with `double time' play.

"The great demarcator in the history of sword play was the transition from fencing in `single' to `double time'. In the former, the preferred tactic was to provoke an attack and counter into the opponent's offense, and (if necessary) blocking the path of the incoming blade with one's own, also known as `covering'; These days this type of counterattack is usually referred to as a `time hit', a `time hit with opposition', or a `covered time hit'. In contrast, in `double time' fencing, the incoming attack is first parried with the sword blade and then followed up with a counter attack, the `riposte'. Of course, the above description is of single swords opposing each other; With left hand parrying implements, as was the rule with rapiers, the action became more complex but still retained the same essential character described above."

It should be noted that full `double time' swordplay became possible only with the advent of the very much lighter and faster purely thrusting small-sword of the late 18th century; Its fight was characterized by leading with the sword arm and leg and the frequent use of the lunge. In contrast, early rapier consisted of leading with the leg opposite to the sword side, holding back the sword and delivering attacks by taking a step forward, called a `pass', with the sword side leg and extending the sword arm. The lunge was rarely used.

Spanish knife play, according to the English fencing authority Egerton Castle, was based on early rapier play, and of course `sans covering', with attacks being delivered on the `pass' and leading with the leg opposite to the sword side. It has to be understood clearly that later sword play, that is, in `double time', cannot not be adapted to knives because they cannot parry on account of their short length. Even the very long, short sword like Gaucho facons and Spanish left hand daggers could not parry reliably for being too heavy and or too short and for this reason were used in conjunction with a cape.

Over the years there were numerous attempts by fencing masters to incorporate sword techniques into knife usage, but inevitably these were reiterations of early rapier or left hand dagger play, as exemplified by the section dealing with daggers in Alfred Hutton's `Cold Steel'.

There were also a few questionable, and in my view unsuccessful, attempts to introduce modern fencing elements such as leading with the knife hand and leg and primarily attacking the opponents knife hand, as done in epee and sabre duels. These techniques are not likely to work against a fighter who does not oblige by leading with the knife hand and in any event such an on-guard position is very risky because of the ease with which the extended knife can be displaced, trapped or by-passed. In fact, the majority of the self defense moves taught assume that that is how the attacker will behave.

I should close with the observation that the majority of movie knife fights are based on re-hashed `double time' sword fencing moves and are intended to be mere entertainment rather than a exposition of a sound way to duel with knives.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Frank,

I have seen numerous antique large folders that could be flung open, but these had rather loose blades at the hinge to permit this action. Old navajas had riveted pivot pins and unlike the modern tactical folders, the tightness of the blade could not be finely adjusted, at least not easily in an age when few had the necessary tools - And a folder with a loose blade at the pivot pin is a very weak knife - So, it is a matter of guesswork if many were opened that way.

In any event and as we have seen, the Spanish authorities did not take well to locks of any kind and it is safe to assume that those that could be opened quickly on account of a fast action and lock would have been even less tolerated in most jurisdictions. Most lockers that can be opened quickly, like Bill's, are of French origins from the late 1800s, an era by which the navaja in Spain was in decline.

Cheers
Chris

[Bill]

The mechanics on the blade seems to be rather simple; folded, the hinged end is squared resting against the lock, holding the blade in. The blade is large and heavy. With momentum, the weight, makes the swing rather quick. The other side of the hinged end is curved, bringing the teat under the lock. I am surprised, that with the craftsmanship involved, that there is no makers mark, but I am unfamilar with navajas or french work. Frank, I don't recall the price, as I recall, I bought a couple of 19C Moro barungs with this one, all being described as Indonesian barungs, brought back by a WWll vet. It is possible that it once belonged to a Spanish soldier who served in the Philippines.

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Bill

I am surprised, that with the craftsmanship involved, that there is no makers mark, but I am unfamilar with navajas or french work.
.... It is possible that it once belonged to a Spanish soldier who served in the Philippines.

Hi Bill,

1. Is there a logo stamping anywhere on the blade?

2. You could be quite right in that it was a knife that belonged to a Spanish soldier, probably one of Catalan origins.

Cheers
Chris

[Bill]

No logo, it does have the sign of the Cross near the tip, on one side of the blade, & another on the lock.

[Renegade Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

There were also a few questionable, and in my view unsuccessful, attempts to introduce modern fencing elements such as leading with the knife hand and leg and primarily attacking the opponents knife hand, as done in epee and sabre duels. These techniques are not likely to work against a fighter who does not oblige by leading with the knife hand and in any event such an on-guard position is very risky because of the ease with which the extended knife can be displaced, trapped or by-passed. In fact, the majority of the self defense moves taught assume that that is how the attacker will behave.

Many knifefighting methods make use of a strong-side (weapon-hand) lead. It can be seen in FMA, as well as modern Western military knife combat. In regards to the latter, the most obvious example would be the USMC "Biddle System" of Lt. Col. A.J. Drexel Biddle, and that of his protege, John Styers. Keep in mind that the original Biddle system was intended for use with the '03 Springfield sword bayonet, with a 16" blade.

As for the "fighter who does not oblige by leading with the knife hand", his weak side therefore becomes vulnerable instead, and he has sacrificed a good deal of reach with his own weapon.

No single guard position is going to be the right answer for every situation, but for knife-on-knife duelling, the strong-side lead clearly has its benefits.

[Chris Evans]

Hi RC

1. Welcome to the discussion and thank you for the very interesting points you make.

2. RE FMA: Whilst I do not wish to bite into this one, as such discussions rightly belong to MA forums and here we are collectors. But I agree that there are no surviving traditions of old Spanish fencing, save with the later small sword/epee, which in any event were adaptations of the French school, with Hispanic touches added.

2. Re Double Time & G.Silver:

Several issues here:

a) The notion of what we mean by double time (DT) has to be defined. In modern fencing it is generally understood as being able to parry with the sword's blade in all four lines, something only possible with the light weight smallsword and its descendants.

b) If you read my post again, you'll see that I did say that some DT moves are possible with a heavy sword. But only some - Do read that article by Stephan Hand as to why (link given in an earlier thread). The old fencing treatises dealt with fencing in DT with a heavy sword and were unanimous in condemning the practice. A heavy sword just cannot be moved with sufficient speed to intercept all incoming attacks and to successfully riposte.

c) Re George Silver: After having been dismissed by generations of fencers as a reactionary who obstinately refused to see reason and preached mostly fallacies, Silver has found new favour with English speaking historical fencers and has gained quite a following. A lot of his writings, as all historical treatises, have to be interpreted with considerable caution and in the light of expertise. To be sure, he made many valid observations worthy of our consideration, but he cannot be uncritically accepted, otherwise totally unwarranted conclusions may be drawn.

Silver used a sword and buckler, or dagger, or cloak for parrying, as did everybody else in his day when fencing with either broadsword or rapier. Despite Capo Ferro, upholding that the rapier alone was sufficient for defense, the practice of using an auxiliary parrying implement persisted right into the nineteenth century, at least for brawls - Obviously, it was more reliable than relying on the blade alone.

All the fencing treatises of the Renaissance era allowed for the possibility that one may have to fight with sword alone and a good deal of their advice, including Silvers', has to be understood in that kind of scenario. Using the sword to parry with had some merit in such a situation, as was parrying with the left hand, but these methods were far from being the preferred option.


3. Re Leading With The Knife Side:

a) This topic can be debated endlessly and I have my opinions on the matter, which I have already given and my reasons. With that said, we have to distinguish whether we are talking about dueling or general combat situations - My remarks were in the context of knife dueling.

b) One can use whatever stance one wishes, but the Spaniards of old led with the left side because they dueled with parrying capes. To do otherwise would mean largely negating the benefit of the cape and eliminating the possibility of advancing with a "pass".

c) As for the military, generally they are not into knife dueling, neither are they particularly consistent in what they advocate nor are they to be considered as the final arbiters on knife usage - The knife, as the pistol, ranks very low in their priorities, even with special forces. As I am led to believe, the US army currently advocates leading with the left arm and leg, but the Argentinian army prefers a hybrid stance in which the left arm and right leg lead. What is significant in both of these systems is that the free arm is there to parry with.

That said, I take your point about Biddle, though it is held that Applegate did not think much of him and he (Applegate) advocated leading with the left arm and leg.

I read Biddle and he gave me the impression that he had no hands on experience other than in fencing and this was reinforced by his recommending the very questionable Passata Sotto. He gave precious little in terms of technique, except to emphasize that the "scientific" knife fighter attacks the knife hand of his opponent and that there were many advantages to be obtained from using fencing moves - He used the bayonet in the manner of a dueling sabre, which it is not, though even he had the good sense of advancing the unarmed arm so as to be ready to parry.

We have to remember that Biddle was a wealthy socialite schooled in sport fencing who turned soldier; He was enthused, perhaps over enthused by all manner of close combat arts, and much of what he advocated did not reflect military realities or needs. Here is a link to a rather interesting article on him:

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_Svinth_1201.htm

Military men are forever writing about this and that, with the aim of furthering their careers; Some of their material is sound and a lot not so sound. Also a lot of the stuff in army manuals was put there primarily to build confidence and raise morale, and must be read as such, rather than as definitive technical statements.

Cheers
Chris

[Renegade Conquistador]

Chris,

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi RC

1. Welcome to the discussion and thank you for the very interesting points you make.

Thank you.

2. RE FMA: Whilst I do not wish to bite into this one, as such discussions rightly belong to MA forums and here we are collectors. But I agree that there are no surviving traditions of old Spanish fencing, save with the later small sword/epee, which in any event were adaptations of the French school, with Hispanic touches added.

According to maestro William Gaugler, modern-day Neapolitan fencers maintain that there is a Spanish element to their fencing, though they don't know what the element actually is. Aside from that (which obviously isn't much, given the sheer lack of details), there is no surviving Spanish swordplay of any kind.

2. Re Double Time & G.Silver:

Several issues here:

a) The notion of what we mean by double time (DT) has to be defined. In modern fencing it is generally understood as being able to parry with the sword's blade in all four lines, something only possible with the light weight smallsword and its descendants.

Broadswords and backswords are actually well-balanced and responsive. Double-time actions (parry-ripostes) are quite feasible with them. As a collector yourself, I would have thought that you would agree on this.

b) If you read my post again, you'll see that I did say that some DT moves are possible with a heavy sword. But only some - Do read that article by Stephan Hand as to why (link given in an earlier thread). The old fencing treatises dealt with fencing in DT with a heavy sword and were unanimous in condemning the practice. A heavy sword just cannot be moved with sufficient speed to intercept all incoming attacks and to successfully riposte.

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about the German longsword school. I'm talking about Anglo-Scottish broadsword/backsword, as well as later military sabers and cutlasses.

c) Re George Silver: After having been dismissed by generations of fencers as a reactionary who obstinately refused to see reason and preached mostly fallacies, Silver has found new favour with English speaking historical fencers and has gained quite a following. A lot of his writings, as all historical treatises, have to be interpreted with considerable caution and in the light of expertise. To be sure, he made many valid observations worthy of our consideration, but he cannot be uncritically accepted, otherwise totally unwarranted conclusions may be drawn.

What about later manuals of broadsword and saber, then? The parry-riposte is a standard method.

Silver used a sword and buckler, or dagger, or cloak for parrying, as did everybody else in his day when fencing with either broadsword or rapier. Despite Capo Ferro, upholding that the rapier alone was sufficient for defense, the practice of using an auxiliary parrying implement persisted right into the nineteenth century, at least for brawls - Obviously, it was more reliable than relying on the blade alone.

Swords were used alone as well. Basket-hilts are especially suited to this.

All the fencing treatises of the Renaissance era allowed for the possibility that one may have to fight with sword alone and a good deal of their advice, including Silvers', has to be understood in that kind of scenario. Using the sword to parry with had some merit in such a situation, as was parrying with the left hand, but these methods were far from being the preferred option.

Nobody is discounting counteroffensive actions, body voids, "slipping", etc., but the parry-riposte was a greater part of the arsenal of these weapons than you are leading people to believe.

3. Re Leading With The Knife Side:

a) This topic can be debated endlessly and I have my opinions on the matter, which I have already given and my reasons. With that said, we have to distinguish whether we are talking about dueling or general combat situations - My remarks were in the context of knife dueling.

Indeed--a knife vs knife scenario.

b) One can use whatever stance one wishes, but the Spaniards of old led with the left side because they dueled with parrying capes. To do otherwise would mean largely negating the benefit of the cape and eliminating the possibility of advancing with a "pass".

That's fine, but what about fighting with a knife without the use of a secondary?

c) As for the military, generally they are not into knife dueling, neither are they particularly consistent in what they advocate nor are they to be considered as the final arbiters on knife usage - The knife, as the pistol, ranks very low in their priorities, even with special forces. As I am led to believe, the US army currently advocates leading with the left arm and leg, but the Argentinian army prefers a hybrid stance in which the left arm and right leg lead. What is significant in both of these systems is that the free arm is there to parry with.

That said, I take your point about Biddle, though it is held that Applegate did not think much of him and he (Applegate) advocated leading with the left arm and leg.

Why should we favor Applegate over Biddle? Applegate designed a nice knife after the War, but I don't see what makes him "more of an authority" on the subject of knife combat than Biddle.

Applegate was a student of Fairbairn, and you should consider that Fairbairn's curriculum has met its share of mixed reviews (see Robert W. Smith's critique in Martial Musings).

So, to infer that leading with the weak side is better simply because Applegate said so, doesn't mean all that much me.

I read Biddle and he gave me the impression that he had no hands on experience other than in fencing and this was reinforced by his recommending the very questionable Passata Sotto.

I'm not a fan of passata soto for knife fighting either, thought it's at least more feasible with a 16-inch '03 bayonet than a smaller fighting knife.

He gave precious little in terms of technique, except to emphasize that the "scientific" knife fighter attacks the knife hand of his opponent and that there were many advantages to be obtained from using fencing moves - He used the bayonet in the manner of a dueling sabre, which it is not, though even he had the good sense of advancing the unarmed arm so as to be ready to parry.

You said yourself that much of the material on knife combat doesn't amount to a great deal, in terms of technique--Biddle was hardly unique in that department. Look at Applegate's Combat Use of the Double-Edged Fighting Knife and you'll see what I mean.

We have to remember that Biddle was a wealthy socialite schooled in sport fencing who turned soldier; He was enthused, perhaps over enthused by all manner of close combat arts, and much of what he advocated did not reflect military realities or needs. Here is a link to a rather interesting article on him:

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_Svinth_1201.htm

Military men are forever writing about this and that, with the aim of furthering their careers; Some of their material is sound and a lot not so sound. Also a lot of the stuff in army manuals was put there primarily to build confidence and raise morale, and must be read as such, rather than as definitive technical statements.

That should be considered with ALL "military men", then.

Including Applegate.

Back to the subject of the strong-side lead in a knife vs. knife situation, I would recommend what Cold Steel head honcho Lynn Thompson does--spar it out.

The results will speak for themselves.

Best,

R C

[Chris Evans]

Hi RC

....Aside from that (which obviously isn't much, given the sheer lack of details), there is no surviving Spanish swordplay of any kind.

I don't think that you read my post fully. But any kind? That's rather broad isn't it? Just what do you mean by Spanish school? For example how would you classify maestro Carbonel?

Broadswords and backswords are actually well-balanced and responsive.

a) For what application? Cutting? Thrusting? Dueling? On horse back or afoot?

b) Responsive is very subjective, but balance can be measured. Where would you say that their point of balance is in relation to the quillons or end of the grip (not the shell or forward parts of the guard)? And where should it be for (i) cutting and (ii) thrusting? (iii) fencing in ST and DT?

Double-time actions (parry-ripostes) are quite feasible with them... Keep in mind that I'm not talking about the German longsword school. I'm talking about Anglo-Scottish broadsword/backsword, as well as later military sabers and cutlasses.

I already conceded twice that SOME DT actions are possible with them. If you mean full DT play, in all four lines, then please say so and quote your historical sources.

What about later manuals of broadsword and saber, then? The parry-riposte is a standard method.

Standard? And what do you mean by saber? Even then, in which century and which country? Again, please quote your historical sources.

Swords were used alone as well. Basket-hilts are especially suited to this.

I already acknowledged this. If you disagree with the context that I gave for such usage then please state your alternative understanding, otherwise you assertion does not add up to more than a tautology.

....but the parry-riposte was a greater part of the arsenal of these weapons than you are leading people to believe.

Are you suggesting that they parried and riposted in all four lines as in say the stage fight in the film Prisoner of Zenda(1937)? Again your historical sources please.


That's fine, but what about fighting with a knife without the use of a secondary?

I already wrote what Castle in the late nineteenth century wrote about knife usage by the Spaniards. If caught without a parrying implement the Gauchos used a stance very similar to that of Applegate and tried to protect the torso with the left arm and hand. Of course, there being no schools as such, it is and was every man to himself, but that was the general approach 50 years ago. These days all sorts of arts have found their way there, so there is no way of predicting what anyone would do.


Why should we favor Applegate over Biddle? Applegate designed a nice knife after the War, but I don't see what makes him "more of an authority" on the subject of knife combat than Biddle.

I think that you misunderstood my words. I did not uphold one over the other. I only quoted those two to illustrate my contention that the armed forces are not entirely consistent in their approach and therefore cannot be used to support one view or the other as being more valid.

So, to infer that leading with the weak side is better simply because Applegate said so, doesn't mean all that much me.

I never quoted Applegate or any other knife teacher in support of my views. Throughout all my writings I consistently upheld the view that all this talk about knife fighting schools and techniques is much about very little. In real combat with knives, luck, aggression, agility, timing and surprise over-rode the advantages of mere technique. We have ample historical evidence for this and indeed Castle said as much himself. In short, knives make for poor dueling weapons and if used as such, deliverer either stalemates or bloody and uncertain results for both combatants.

I'm not a fan of passata soto for knife fighting either, thought it's at least more feasible with a 16-inch '03 bayonet than a smaller fighting knife.

Amen to that.

You said yourself that much of the material on knife combat doesn't amount to a great deal, in terms of technique--Biddle was hardly unique in that department. Look at Applegate's Combat Use of the Double-Edged Fighting Knife and you'll see what I mean.

You quoted Biddle in support of your views. I never upheld either of those gentlemen as the purveyor of the ultimate truth. Of course, I have my opinion of each, but it is irrelevant to this thread, which is about the navaja and associated themes.

That should be considered with ALL "military men", then.Including Applegate.

After re-reading my original post, I think that we got yet one more tautology here masquerading as an argument. I cannot understand your point, as you seem to be merely repeating what I already said.


Back to the subject of the strong-side lead in a knife vs. knife situation, I would recommend what Cold Steel head honcho Lynn Thompson does--spar it out. The results will speak for themselves.

I fail to see what that would prove, after all, for a combat system to be validated it has to be tested for real and even then by a large number of people to give a representative result - Not very feasible these days. In any event, sparing always contains an element of unreality and whilst it has its uses, it cannot substitute for actual combat.

Nevertheless if Lynn found a better way than the Spaniards or others, then good on him. All sorts of things have been improved upon with the passage of time - For one, he makes far better folders than the Spaniards of old ever did.


Cheers
Chris