East Javanese Keris(es) - Discussion

A. G. Maisey · 27th February 2013, 05:07 AM

I've finally been able to get one of Jean's JPGs through Photoshop --- don't know why they wouldn't cooperate previously. Anyway, if you look at this pic you'll see the pamor grain comes to a peak just about where I've drawn a line, now look at the other side of the blade and you can see a lot of core material in this area of the blade.

Consider this:- take a nice little billet of gonjo material, weld it to one side of the blade and then even up the blade so that there is equal material on each side of a centre line. Result is you've got a thick little lump of material at the gandhik, so you then carve a puthut --- or whatever else you like--- into that thick little lump, but one side of the lump has pamor, the other side does not.

If the welded on lump is tapered down into the body of the blade it passes a cursory inspection as part of the original material.

Jean · 27th February 2013, 10:11 AM

Thank you very much Alan for this detailed inspection and evaluation of my blade, it is truly amazing and I did not notice anything abnormal myself except the clearer colour of the ganja and that the putut figure is not symmetrical!
Regarding the fact that you could not easily photoshop my pictures, it might be due to the compression software (Light Image Resizer 4) which I am using for reducing the picture size.
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 27th February 2013, 12:55 PM

Jean, it would be unreasonable to expect that you would see this. Ric Furrer possibly would, and I can see it, but to understand a blade you need to know how to make a blade. That was the only reason I spent time learning how to make keris, so I would understand them.

But I you might be able to pick this sort of thing next time around. Yes?

The previous image files opened just fine and I could work on them in Photoshop, but when I transferred those files to My Pictures, they stayed locked. I had a close look at the properties on your images and there is a message there that says something about the files came from a different computer and might be protected. So I changed the name and did a few copies before I Photoshopped it, that seemed to get me around any problems.

A. G. Maisey · 27th February 2013, 08:59 PM

#2

Madura is fond of capu kagok as is Solo. This keris doesn't look Solo to me, I think maybe coastal East Jawa, wr. Madura.

#3

mamas SW , complex pamor in light blade, probably Jatim/ Maduro

Post 8, keris #2 and keris #3

not a lot I can say about either of these.

#2 is pretty featureless; in the pics it seems to have a "fallen brick" blumbangan, which looks like about the only indicator I can see; the stain is not wonderful, and this might be material or might be the warangan or might be the lack of skill in the person who did it; top of the gonjo might give a clue, feel of the weight distribution and texture of material might give a clue.
Thinking in terms of major strands of influence, yes, Solo and Madura are both known for this scabbard form, but realistically it could be just about anywhere away from strong direct kraton influence.
The hilt is not Solo work, but it uses a Solo style for a model, it also doesn't strike me as Madura work.

I think I'd opt for "Javanese" only for this one.

#3 presents as a typical Madura blade both stylistically and in respect of pamor; the blumbangan looks to be "brick standing", the luk at the point is fairly longish which is not particularly known as a Madura characteristic, but is accepted as an East Jawa characteristic. Maybe a Madura blade made for East Jawa mainland ?
The scabbard form --- mamas SW --- is strongly associated with East Jawa.

I think I'll stay with my hip shot on this one:- East Jawa/Madura

Jean · 28th February 2013, 08:59 AM

Thank you Alan and I deeply appreciate your expert analysis as usual.
I have other supposedly East Javanese krisses to show but will leave the floor to others.

BTW do you consider Tuban style blades as Jatim or Jateng?
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 28th February 2013, 11:46 AM

Actually Jean, I consider Tuban blades as Tuban:- Tuban is a legit tangguh. This "Jatim"/"jateng" thing is an artificial construct that we're using here because it suits the way the collecting community here thinks, it really has very little --- maybe nothing --- to do with the way Javanese people classify keris.

Jean · 1st March 2013, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually Jean, I consider Tuban blades as Tuban:- Tuban is a legit tangguh. This "Jatim"/"jateng" thing is an artificial construct that we're using here because it suits the way the collecting community here thinks, it really has very little --- maybe nothing --- to do with the way Javanese people classify keris.

Hello Alan,
Thanks, very clear and understood.
Regards

27th February 2013, 05:07 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I've finally been able to get one of Jean's JPGs through Photoshop --- don't know why they wouldn't cooperate previously. Anyway, if you look at this pic you'll see the pamor grain comes to a peak just about where I've drawn a line, now look at the other side of the blade and you can see a lot of core material in this area of the blade. Consider this:- take a nice little billet of gonjo material, weld it to one side of the blade and then even up the blade so that there is equal material on each side of a centre line. Result is you've got a thick little lump of material at the gandhik, so you then carve a puthut --- or whatever else you like--- into that thick little lump, but one side of the lump has pamor, the other side does not. If the welded on lump is tapered down into the body of the blade it passes a cursory inspection as part of the original material. Attached Images

27th February 2013, 10:11 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you very much Alan for this detailed inspection and evaluation of my blade, it is truly amazing and I did not notice anything abnormal myself except the clearer colour of the ganja and that the putut figure is not symmetrical! Regarding the fact that you could not easily photoshop my pictures, it might be due to the compression software (Light Image Resizer 4) which I am using for reducing the picture size. Best regards

27th February 2013, 12:55 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Jean, it would be unreasonable to expect that you would see this. Ric Furrer possibly would, and I can see it, but to understand a blade you need to know how to make a blade. That was the only reason I spent time learning how to make keris, so I would understand them. But I you might be able to pick this sort of thing next time around. Yes? The previous image files opened just fine and I could work on them in Photoshop, but when I transferred those files to My Pictures, they stayed locked. I had a close look at the properties on your images and there is a message there that says something about the files came from a different computer and might be protected. So I changed the name and did a few copies before I Photoshopped it, that seemed to get me around any problems.

27th February 2013, 08:59 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	#2 Madura is fond of capu kagok as is Solo. This keris doesn't look Solo to me, I think maybe coastal East Jawa, wr. Madura. #3 mamas SW , complex pamor in light blade, probably Jatim/ Maduro Post 8, keris #2 and keris #3 not a lot I can say about either of these. #2 is pretty featureless; in the pics it seems to have a "fallen brick" blumbangan, which looks like about the only indicator I can see; the stain is not wonderful, and this might be material or might be the warangan or might be the lack of skill in the person who did it; top of the gonjo might give a clue, feel of the weight distribution and texture of material might give a clue. Thinking in terms of major strands of influence, yes, Solo and Madura are both known for this scabbard form, but realistically it could be just about anywhere away from strong direct kraton influence. The hilt is not Solo work, but it uses a Solo style for a model, it also doesn't strike me as Madura work. I think I'd opt for "Javanese" only for this one. #3 presents as a typical Madura blade both stylistically and in respect of pamor; the blumbangan looks to be "brick standing", the luk at the point is fairly longish which is not particularly known as a Madura characteristic, but is accepted as an East Jawa characteristic. Maybe a Madura blade made for East Jawa mainland ? The scabbard form --- mamas SW --- is strongly associated with East Jawa. I think I'll stay with my hip shot on this one:- East Jawa/Madura

28th February 2013, 08:59 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan and I deeply appreciate your expert analysis as usual. I have other supposedly East Javanese krisses to show but will leave the floor to others. BTW do you consider Tuban style blades as Jatim or Jateng? Best regards

28th February 2013, 11:46 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Actually Jean, I consider Tuban blades as Tuban:- Tuban is a legit tangguh. This "Jatim"/"jateng" thing is an artificial construct that we're using here because it suits the way the collecting community here thinks, it really has very little --- maybe nothing --- to do with the way Javanese people classify keris.