semi-dual edged badik?

Moshah · 26th February 2013, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Moshah,

No, a hulu pekaka from dugong is just not possible - only small hilts could be made from it and I'd really love to see a well-documented example!

Have a look at this recent thread and another one discussing dugong.

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for the link, Kai.

BTW attached were extra pix of hilt # 3, the full built and close up.

I don't know what happen but it looks like he's having a bad measles there

- something I haven't see on my other gigi hilts. Perhaps a different kind of tusk / ivory, as I don't think this measle-thingy can be called patinated, isn't it?

Regards,
Moshah

T. Koch · 26th February 2013, 03:58 PM

Hi Mosha,

I'm not sure, but would think it could be because the nose is carved from the outer layer of cementum It also makes sense as it seems to be the most extreme part of the little guy. The transparency of the nose is what makes him so cute!

The "mis"-colored one in the bottom pic is the same material as the others, IMO. Sometimes ivory just ages more beautifully than in other cases. It's the same if you look at the walrus hilts above - some become golden and lustrous with time while others become grey and 'dirty' looking. I guess it depends on what kind of life the material has had and which kind of environment it's been stored in.
For this reason I in some cases personally find pieces of antler or bone more attractive than some pieces of ivory. I really love a warm and golden color and the aesthetic expression is more important to me in a piece, than the type of material.

I've found a new pekaka hilt in walrus ivory for you, but the photo is from a dealers page, so I'll send you the link in a pm.

We're not allowed to publically post pictures of stuff for sale, even if we don't reveal the source of the photo ...right?

Take care, - Thor

kai · 26th February 2013, 09:13 PM

Hello Thor,

Quote:

We're not allowed to publically post pictures of stuff for sale, even if we don't reveal the source of the photo ...right?

Yup, stuff for sale is a no-no...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 26th February 2013, 10:33 PM

Thanks for the extra pics, Moshah!

Quote:

Perhaps a different kind of tusk / ivory, as I don't think this measle-thingy can be called patinated, isn't it?

I'd love to examine #3 in person: I also believe it is hippo but I can't ascertain from the pics wether the mottled appearance is from uneven staining/corrosion/patina or due to some other cause.

From the pics, the tip of the beak almost looks like a repair while the rest of the TIZ is obviously fine despite the unusual choice of placing it that close to the edge of the piece - looks like the carver was hoping to avoid including it but ran out of material...

Regards,
Kai

Moshah · 28th February 2013, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'd love to examine #3 in person: I also believe it is hippo but I can't ascertain from the pics wether the mottled appearance is from uneven staining/corrosion/patina or due to some other cause.

You're most welcome when you are around here! Surely we can discuss more about these hilts and many other things...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

From the pics, the tip of the beak almost looks like a repair while the rest of the TIZ is obviously fine despite the unusual choice of placing it that close to the edge of the piece - looks like the carver was hoping to avoid including it but ran out of material...

That was a spot-on; it is indeed a repair. The tip was an ivory piece glued to the beak.

Since this material was dearly prized back then, I believe the carver's intention was to make the most from the chunk of material he got. Rightfully they were skilled artisan as well, as they wouldn't rush the process for $$$, unlike these days.

Regards,
Moshah

kai · 28th February 2013, 09:39 PM

Quote:

You're most welcome when you are around here! Surely we can discuss more about these hilts and many other things...

Thanks, Moshah! I do indeed hope that we'll be able to meet and mull over our collections sometime in the future...

Regards,
Kai

T. Koch · 1st March 2013, 03:45 AM

Hi kai,

No, unfortunately I haven't been able to photograph any cuts from dugong ivory. I have however, recently for the first time seen dugong teeth in person and to my great surprise they are solid with almost no central cavity - not hollow as I thought a lot of available photos seem to show.

This has somewhat altered my opinion of what can - and can't be - cut from dugong teeth. I have taken photos of the teeth in situ and will upload them when I have a chance to dig them out of my archive at work.

Regarding the ID based on laminations alone, I agree a 110% with you kai, that it's not a sufficient character alone.

Detlef, until I have actually seen dugong ivory in some cut sections, my best guess would be that the hilt you show is carved from hippo incisor. It fits the concentric layers with the central dot as well as the general outline - see standard reference picture attached. If they exported the tusk to SEA , then surely it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume, that the incisors went the same route?

- beautiful hilt btw!

All the best, - Thor

T. Koch · 1st March 2013, 03:46 AM

...the walrus one kicks major butt too - the color is stellar! Would you say that this one was tea-stained?

Moshah · 1st March 2013, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

...the walrus one kicks major butt too - the color is stellar!

I am totally agree with you. It is a nice piece!

Anyway, what's with the green smudge on the base, Detlef?

1st March 2013, 03:45 AM	#7
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi kai, No, unfortunately I haven't been able to photograph any cuts from dugong ivory. I have however, recently for the first time seen dugong teeth in person and to my great surprise they are solid with almost no central cavity - not hollow as I thought a lot of available photos seem to show. This has somewhat altered my opinion of what can - and can't be - cut from dugong teeth. I have taken photos of the teeth in situ and will upload them when I have a chance to dig them out of my archive at work. Regarding the ID based on laminations alone, I agree a 110% with you kai, that it's not a sufficient character alone. Detlef, until I have actually seen dugong ivory in some cut sections, my best guess would be that the hilt you show is carved from hippo incisor. It fits the concentric layers with the central dot as well as the general outline - see standard reference picture attached. If they exported the tusk to SEA , then surely it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume, that the incisors went the same route? - beautiful hilt btw! All the best, - Thor Attached Images

26th February 2013, 03:58 PM	#2
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi Mosha, I'm not sure, but would think it could be because the nose is carved from the outer layer of cementum It also makes sense as it seems to be the most extreme part of the little guy. The transparency of the nose is what makes him so cute! The "mis"-colored one in the bottom pic is the same material as the others, IMO. Sometimes ivory just ages more beautifully than in other cases. It's the same if you look at the walrus hilts above - some become golden and lustrous with time while others become grey and 'dirty' looking. I guess it depends on what kind of life the material has had and which kind of environment it's been stored in. For this reason I in some cases personally find pieces of antler or bone more attractive than some pieces of ivory. I really love a warm and golden color and the aesthetic expression is more important to me in a piece, than the type of material. I've found a new pekaka hilt in walrus ivory for you, but the photo is from a dealers page, so I'll send you the link in a pm. We're not allowed to publically post pictures of stuff for sale, even if we don't reveal the source of the photo ...right? Take care, - Thor

1st March 2013, 03:46 AM	#8
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	...the walrus one kicks major butt too - the color is stellar! Would you say that this one was tea-stained?