semi-dual edged badik?

[T. Koch]

Originally Posted by Moshah

Hi Thor. Is the TIZ only appears on hippo tusk? If it was unique to hippo ivory alone, I think that was one easy determinant, providing that the hilt exposed good side of the cross-sectional plane. On kerises hilt, that could be tricky...

Hi Mosha! Here it is the combination of the visible laminar build-up of dentine in combination with the dots in an angled row. These two combinations lead me to believe that we are dealing with hippo ivory. I will never give a statement in certainty about these things, unless I have the piece in hand. I generally advise anybody being cautious when performing an identification and never to do it based on a sole character trait alone. I've personally seen other ivory species which show either similar dots or similar laminations. With the two characters being present here together, i.e. the laminations and the dots, my belief is strong that it is indeed hippo ivory.

I asked a colleague today btw, if he knew whether hippo tusks grow continually through the life of the animal and even though he wasn't sure, he pointed out a supporting fact that I hadn't considered: When the hippopotamus closes it mouth, the apical surface of the tusks in the lower jaw grind against those of the tusks in the upper jaw, perpetually wearing down the tusks from the distal end. This taken into consideration, it would make highly sense for the tusks to keep on growing and renewing throughout the life of the animal.

I found a picture of a hippo skull where you can maybe get an idea of the tusks grinding against eachother:

[T. Koch]

Here is the standard reference picture for a hippo tusk in cross section. Normally you would see a straight line of dots appearing in an ivory piece that has been cut from lengthwise down along the left and right borders of the TIZ.

If hippo tusks indeed grow throughout the life of the animal, my guess is that your piece came from an old hippo where the continuous addition of the lamellar dentine layers over time has completely "crushed" the TIZ and reduced it to the series of dots we see from the pommel end. Notice how the angle of dots in your hilt approximately fits with the shape of the TIZ? The picture also clearly shows the laminations.

It could also just be a freak - a deviation from the norm, where an animal has been born without a prominent TIZ. I don't know - but now I'm certainly dead curious to find out!

Regarding the tea staining, I'm sorry but can't answer you. I don't know anything about it but would love to learn more! Where was it done, how exactly, how culturally widespread, since when, etc. I just know I like the color.


All the best, - Thor

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

...Normally you would see a straight line of dots appearing in an ivory piece that has been cut from lengthwise down along the left and right borders of the TIZ.
If hippo tusks indeed grow throughout the life of the animal, my guess is that your piece came from an old hippo where the continuous addition of the lamellar dentine layers over time has completely "crushed" the TIZ and reduced it to the series of dots we see from the pommel end. Notice how the angle of dots in your hilt approximately fits with the shape of the TIZ? The picture also clearly shows the laminations.

Well Thor I think that when you compared the TIZ pix with the badik's hilt, definitely you've got it right.

However some of my kerises hilts were also producing the similar tiny dots over the TIz. Then would it be a hippo tusks as well? Generally it was touted as "sea ivory" over here, and the main indicator is the tiny dots along the TIZ, if that was ever the TIZ.

Was marine ivory (walrus, sperm whale etc) doesn't have TIZ?

[Moshah]

I'm sorry. The pix attachment seems to get haywire a little bit but I've already arrange it in order during the posting process...

It is basically three hilts, with hilt # (b) supposedly closed up on the tiny dots on the TIZ...

[DAHenkel]

This discussion has taken an interesting tangent...

I'm no expert by any means but I did want to raise one other alternate theory. I have seen unworked "gigi" in Kelantan and Pattani and it doesn't resemble at all the hippo ivory I've seen. Rather it was represented to me as walrus tusk (gigi singa laut). Based on this experience I've always believed that gigi = walrus ivory.


Comparatively, you see a lot of "gigi" in Pattani, Kelantan and Terengganu. There must have been a reliable and fairly abundant source, but the Malay world's ties with tropical Africa were pretty distant. That's not to say that some hippo ivory didn't make it there but it is very rare IMO, having as it must to travel through the traditional trading route along the African and Iranian coast, through India and then only making the jump to Sumatra, Kedah then overland (or later, through Singapore). I've only seen one hilt in Kelantan that I'm fairly confident is hippo...this is based on comparison with photos of Persian khanjar hilts I've seen.

However with the walrus hypothesis you may have a source for the material. Its been reported that in the 18th and 19th centuries, American whalers sometimes wintered by sailing a loop down into the S. China Sea, following the coast of Vietnam and the Malay Peninsula before turning back east along the N. Borneo coast. They brought with them mostly whale bone and hippo ivory to trade for supplies and probably some exotics to bring home (some to the Peabody Essex apparently ) . Popular tradition in Kelantan is that the gigi was bought from American sailors.

Anyway, perhaps someone with more expertise on the material side can do some digging and see if they can find comparisons to walrus ivory?

Also, as an aside...another sea mammal here in Southeast Asia worth looking at is the dugong or sea cow. I was told by the carvers though that dugong ivory is too small to make proper "hulu gigi". Also, dugong are very rare, shy creatures which doesn't jibe with the huge supply needed to make all those gigi hilts. I've seen some badik hilts that were said to be dugong though.

[kai]

Hello Dave,

I have seen unworked "gigi" in Kelantan and Pattani and it doesn't resemble at all the hippo ivory I've seen. Rather it was represented to me as walrus tusk (gigi singa laut). Based on this experience I've always believed that gigi = walrus ivory.

You don't happen to have a pic of those unworked tusks, have you?

I've only seen one hilt in Kelantan that I'm fairly confident is hippo...this is based on comparison with photos of Persian khanjar hilts I've seen.

This contrasts with my experience: I see quite a few Malay and Sumatran keris hilts made from what I and Detlef (and possibly also Thor ) would tentatively assign to being of hippo origin while walrus seems to be quite rare; in Ottoman, Persian and Indian hilts walrus is much more common.

Walrus tusks have a prominent inner core that exhibits a distinct mottled pattern upon staining or developing patina.

Its been reported that in the 18th and 19th centuries, American whalers sometimes wintered by sailing a loop down into the S. China Sea, following the coast of Vietnam and the Malay Peninsula before turning back east along the N. Borneo coast.
They brought with them mostly whale bone and hippo ivory

I assume you mean whale and walrus (rather than hippo)?

Are spermwhale tooth also mentioned in those accounts? While these are usually too small for carving the fairly large N Malay keris hilts, they may be the main source for those pieces that are locally identified as dugong.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Walrus tusks have a prominent inner core that exhibits a distinct mottled pattern upon staining or developing patina.

Agree with Kai and Thor, to my opinion the shown keris hilts are from hippo ivory.

Walrus ivory is like Kai described, here three pictures from walrus ivory taken from other threads. I have seen only very few keris hilts worked from walrus ivory.

Regards,

Detlef

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Also, as an aside...another sea mammal here in Southeast Asia worth looking at is the dugong or sea cow. I was told by the carvers though that dugong ivory is too small to make proper "hulu gigi". Also, dugong are very rare, shy creatures which doesn't jibe with the huge supply needed to make all those gigi hilts. I've seen some badik hilts that were said to be dugong though.

Yeah I still remember back in the 90s where a fisherman from Johore accidentally caught a dugong and the news went national. It got so many mass media coverage and many people came down to see it by themselves. There were also a struggle between the wildlife bodies and the founder on the right of keeping this very endangered mammal, before it sadly die...

Of course the poor dugong mentioned above was rather small, but perhaps the dugongs / sea cows of those days were fairly big as to provide enough sources for those massive pekaka hilts?

It happen to the tigers and lions too, whereas now you could hardly see them raised up as big a size as their predecessors...

[kai]

Hello Moshah,

Of course the poor dugong mentioned above was rather small, but perhaps the dugongs / sea cows of those days were fairly big as to provide enough sources for those massive pekaka hilts?

No, a hulu pekaka from dugong is just not possible - only small hilts could be made from it and I'd really love to see a well-documented example!

Have a look at this recent thread and another one discussing dugong.

Regards,
Kai