Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all. Note to Forum. Is the blade seen held by the man at photo 1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15241 the same sort of blade on the project sword style here?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Sorry I just don't see what this has to do with the type of sword we are discussing. It is a completely different hilt style......

[kahnjar1]

It would appear from the links to Michael Blalock's pics, that the long "Yemeni/Saudi" hilt in fact is a genuine article, and not some "backyard invention". Particularly, the pic of the display in the Museum seems to confirm this. It's a pity we don't know what the descriptive caption says.....
It now remains to try and establish some time line for these, and if possible their place of origin.
I have taken the liberty of reproducing Michael's pics here for reference.
Regards Stu

[T. Koch]

Hi Stu!

Sorry for a tiny bit of OT, but in which museum was the above photo taken? The middle saber with the brass hilt appears to be a Bornean/Sumatran Piso Podang - what a strange company he here finds himself in.


Cheers, - Thor

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Hi Stu!

Sorry for a tiny bit of OT, but in which museum was the above photo taken? The middle saber with the brass hilt appears to be a Bornean/Sumatran Piso Podang - what a strange company he here finds himself in.


Cheers, - Thor

Hi Thor,
I am no expert in these but also thought that Piso somewhat out of place.....I understand that the pic was taken at a Military Museum In Yemen. Michael may respond to this and clarify for us.
Regards Stu

[Gavin Nugent]

Perhaps not out of place at all....Sea trade and Arabian influences are seen in the region.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Perhaps not out of place at all....Sea trade and Arabian influences are seen in the region.

Salaams freebooter. Absolutely correct. A lot of estates and plantations in the Far East were owned by Yemeni landlords. In addition see Wikepedia;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaush

Quote "Since the early 19th century, large-scale Hadhramaut migration has established sizable Hadhrami minorities all around the Indian Ocean, in South Asia, Southeast Asia and East Africa including Hyderabad, Bhatkal, Gangolli, Malabar, Sylhet, Java, Sumatra, Malacca and Singapore.

In Hyderabad, the community is known as Chaush and resides mostly in the neighborhood of Barkas.

Several Indonesian ministers, including former Foreign Minister Ali Alatas and former Finance Minister Mari'e Muhammad are of Hadhrami descent, as is the former Prime Minister of East Timor, Mari Al-Kathiri.

Hadhramis have also settled in large numbers along the East African coast, and two former ministers in Kenya, Shariff Nasser and Najib Balala, are of Hadhrami descent". Unquote.

For the linguists Chaush is a Turkish word which probably gave the Arabic version Jeysh (military) and the region in Hyderabad ...Barkas ...comes from the English word Barracks. Typing into search CHAUSH will unveil a part of Indo Arabian history that most people have never heard of but is fascinating reading for those that do..

The movement of Yemenis to Hyderabad was substantial thus what is important is the swordmaking potential link between Hadramaut Yemen and Hyderabad India and to what extent this migration of Arabian people to Hyderabad actually contributed to that art.

Regarding the Piso question it is entirely natural through trade and cross migration that such a weapon co-exists in the Red Sea armoury.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

It would appear from the links to Michael Blalock's pics, that the long "Yemeni/Saudi" hilt in fact is a genuine article, and not some "backyard invention". Particularly, the pic of the display in the Museum seems to confirm this. It's a pity we don't know what the descriptive caption says.....
It now remains to try and establish some time line for these, and if possible their place of origin.
I have taken the liberty of reproducing Michael's pics here for reference.
Regards Stu

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ Yes, I thought that's what we were doing?...trying to ascertain whether or not ? Try prefixing the concept with the tried and tested formula- where, what, why, when, how and who? It often works.

Further more~ and checking back through the forum library there is nothing set in "stone" here (scuse pun) and quite often a fresh look uncovers unforseen detail. For example what if the Mamluke style of sword blade on post #31 of this thread is related and is there any link to the Omani Battle Sword hilt? Not least in the questionaire is when did it appear, who used it (and for what?) and where? What I do know is this is from the Red Sea region and is absolutely not Omani...

#1 I believe holds the key...since it becomes clearly obvious that the hilt which has some age to it was made to fit this specific style of weapon therefor it was all made at the same time hilt, blade and scabbard...perhaps focus on that.

After that, the field is wide open for a "forum" solution.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Sorry I just don't see what this has to do with the type of sword we are discussing. It is a completely different hilt style......

Salaams kahnjar1 ~Not the hilt ... the blade.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1 ~Not the hilt ... the blade.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

.......yes but the purpose of this thread being reopened was to try and establish what the covering might have been on the long hilt. Subsequently this has been expanded to try and establish a time line and origin of this particular type. I have my doubts that the fitted blades would establish that, as you well know tha the range of blades (and ages of them) fitted to Middle Eastern swords varies considerably in origin and age.
Lets try not to drown the original subject with likely non related side journeys.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.......yes but the purpose of this thread being reopened was to try and establish what the covering might have been on the long hilt. Subsequently this has been expanded to try and establish a time line and origin of this particular type. I have my doubts that the fitted blades would establish that, as you well know tha the range of blades (and ages of them) fitted to Middle Eastern swords varies considerably in origin and age.
Lets try not to drown the original subject with likely non related side journeys.

Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold...

We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out.

I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword".

The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research.

You never know it could be important !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[T. Koch]

Thanks Stu! Would be cool if anybody ever visiting the museum could have a look at their info on the piece. Maybe the data will have a riveting tale to tell, along the lines that Gavin suggests! I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for the museum to go online with their collection..

Then maybe you guys could also get a useful pointer as to time-span for this new sword type of yours.


All the best, - Thor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold...

We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out.

I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword".

The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research.

You never know it could be important !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams ~ Note to Forum. The technique of covering the hilt in leather is multi faceted ..
1. It provides a much sturdier hilt.
2. The anti slip, good grip qualities of leather make it an excellent material.
3. Leather was in plentiful supply from goat, cow, camel and occasionally other tallismanic materials like wolf, hyena and fox.
4. Lastly the habit of covering iron with leather was used to negate the devil/evil link of Iron coming into direct contact with the skin. Iron was seen as attracting evil.

#1 shows how the scabbard was completed in worked leather and it would be easy to imagine that a hilt would be more susceptible to destructive wear thus all that's left is the metalic hilt... in most cases Iron though some with partial other metals in places perhaps the result of a running repair.

The museum plaque probably holds little factual evidence (as usual) Pro active information and detail on Museum exhibits is laughable at best and I would imagine it says something like "Arabian Red Sea swords," however, that is not to write off an aproach on potential information...Anything goes on that quest !

More to the point is the construction of the hilt showing that the style is in line with the technique of the Omani Battle Sword Hilt with Pommel not attached to tang though the two parts of the hilt appear welded unlike the Omani Hilt which is riveted over a wooden insert core. The pommel unlike the Omani Hilt is very crude as are the what look like remnants of quillons which are in fact incorporated into the cuff. Occasionally the cuff has the weird long window like addition which could be to enable a stuck sword to be freed or used in the role of quillons to twist an opponents blade out of his grip. The whole hilt appears as a monumental religious based iconic shape..with a number of potential provenances including African. It could even be a mass produced militia sword.

The full implications need to be examined as it may be a separate as yet unidentified type. Its provenance needs a full airing and any links to other regional variants should be carefully considered.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, Note to Forum; I discovered this interesting shot by Michael Blalock in another lead at http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ons-and-armour at post #3 bringing the question to that of the Wallace collection again. See #14 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=wallace These swords appear to be of Yemeni pedegree though there appear to be two qualities...viz;

1.The quite basic variety that we have been dealing with which could perhaps be Yemeni Askri(Palace Guard/Militia) weapons and
2.The very highly ornate Wallace collection/ ornate version seen in para 1 above quality.



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Note ...To complete my overall view on this style and in reviewing similar blades to the basic project blades at #1 and similar are there relationships also connected to the blade style seen at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...arabian+swords in the souk.

Naturally there are various solutions, though, it may be some time before a complete analysis presents itself. Until then I would advise the usual open mind and thorough research with the hope that conclusive evidence is presented.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All, Note to Forum; I discovered this interesting shot by Michael Blalock in another lead at http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ons-and-armour at post #3 bringing the question to that of the Wallace collection again. See #14 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=wallace These swords appear to be of Yemeni pedegree though there appear to be two qualities...viz;

1.The quite basic variety that we have been dealing with which could perhaps be Yemeni Askri(Palace Guard/Militia) weapons and
2.The very highly ornate Wallace collection/ ornate version seen in para 1 above quality.



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

So we don't have to continually link to other threads, here are the pics of the Wallace Collection sword, with descriptive text.