cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

[purwacarita]

Hi Marto. I was told that gurindam is used since Singasari and Sriwijaya. I have posted the story. I'm quite surprised that it sounds strange to you all.

I'll add later, I got to go right now.

~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani

[nechesh]

Hi Purwacarita. I am trying very hard to understand you, but our ideas seem to be missing each other somehow. I understand that communicating in English must be very difficult for you though your English is certainly better than my Indonesian , but still, i am having continued problems with not only your use of what i thought as commonly understood words (i.e.Yoni/Lingga) but also what i thought were Indonesian words, many of which i am unable to find in any Indonesian/English dictionary. So i will be the second one (the first being one of your own countrymen) to ask you for the definition of "ruabhineda". Also, since the large majority of us do not speak your language, i would kindly request that if you use it that you please translate it. Understand that i have emense respect for your culture and sincerely welcome your imput and that of other Indonesians in these dicussions on keris. Your imput is vital to our understanding of both keris in context of Indonesia today and your culture in general. But twice you have written "~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani "
Can you (or anyone) please translate so that we might better understand each other. If it is a statement that is only made for the benefit of your fellow countrymen, then i respectfully request that you make it to them directly in private messages, not on this open forum.
I wrote in my previous post: "The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself."
You responded to me by writing: "Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time."
Frankly i am confused and cannot tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. How is my understanding different than yours?
I would NEVER argue your right to post the things you believe are right, but while i understand and have great respect for those who can silently hold true to the things they believe and not challenge those who they think are mistaken or misguided, i am not so sure such a philosophy would be a good idea in the context of a place of learning such as this forum. If i, or anyone, were to let remarks they feel are questionable go unchallenged it would only encourge forumites who didn't know any better to accept them as truths and misinformation would spread. This has happened far too often in the keris world. Even books by well respected scholars in the field have given birth to much erroneous information which many collectors hold to to this day. Just because it is in a book doesn't make it true. I admittedly do not know enough about all you say to tell you you are wrong. But i do know enough to question the things you say. You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. Who should i believe as a seeker of truth about keris (and a few other things ). When i question them the answers come more easily and make more sense (and jive with what little i already know). When i question you i get misunderstanding, sarcasm and what i sense as a general distain for my culture (please tell me i am wrong?). Please help me understand this.

[marto suwignyo]

Pak Purwacarita, I regret that I have been misunderstood.

Your story is not at all strange. I think I have heard this story in one form or another previously, and I understand the ideas perfectly. Similarly, I understand the idea and practice of a gesture or action carrying an unspoken message. You and I both know that this is a part of Javanese culture and society, and anybody who lives in Javanese society needs to know how to read the message, and how to use the action to carry the message.

My only problem was with your use of the word "gurindam". However, after lengthy thought on this matter, I think I can see how it would be possible use the word as you have used it.

I do not in any way question your right to use language as you see fit. I regret that I was insufficiently astute to immediately understand your meaning. The fault was in my lack of sensitivity, not in your usage of language.

[nechesh]

Thanks Marto for coming foward to clear up this misunderstanding. It certainly is good to know that there is some understanding between countrymen here and it lessens the confusion for me at least to know that the two of you are in agreement on at least this single word "gurindam".
But i am afraid my issues here go further than this single word and i hope we can all come to a clearer understanding of each other soon. This doesn't mean we all need to agree, just understand.

[purwacarita]

Nechesh, you worte You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. I'm sorry that my post was read that way I guess I'm not good enough to use English language or maybe I often used English words which read politely by coutrymen (like me), but read disrespect by Englishmen. If you can quote specifically which part I sound like that, please do so so I can fix that. I won't edit my post, but will post the clarification. I hope it works for you and for the countrymen.

Your understanding of Yoni is diffenrent from mine. I understand it NOT as a representation of sex organ and I have posted on ruabhineda but you seem to skip it.

The words Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani in my modest understanding will read the ideal philosophy of life, where if we are in front of things or if we feel superior of more powerful than others, we should give constructive examples through our daily deeds. If we are among others or in community, we shall share our constructive spirit (not soul). If we are behind the scene we shall be the driving force to motivate others to contructiveness. I hope I'm not wrong.

About gurindam, thanx to Boedhi I have another understanding. My last understanding is as I posted that it is a gift with symbols of an unspeakable message, while the message is usually unspeakable, it is usually sarcastic in order to echo the message in bearer's mind. But having gurindam said in poem like the Malayan's, I think that I could be wrong in putting the name gurindam to call the gift. Perhaps the correct one is that gurindam is the sarcastic method of message delivery where keris, poem, gift etc are only the media. Thus I think in Malayan gurindam version in poem, the poem itself is not gurindam, but by reading it, ones will remember something like his duty or commitment, and so the poem serves the purpose as gurindam. A mild sarcastic message to us in order to remember our duty/commitment. There, I think it's better.

~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani. It's now a gurindam.

[sigit subagio]

Pak Purwa, Sigit will please to ask Pak Purwa to tell what means it:-

Ing ngarso sing tuladha ing madya mbangun karsa tut wuri handayani.

Sigit very ashame and embaras because to ask this because Sigit Jawa pribumi and from Jember and parent from Matesih but Sigit no can Krama Inggil and already to ask to other people much and they not can understand also.

Please Pak Purwa can to write this with ngoko or with Bahasa Indonesia.

Please Pak Purwa no to write the filsafat however to write the word with ngoko or Bahasa Indonesia.

Please to forgive Sigit for stupid and for no good education because Sigit to cause Pak Purwa very much problem and difficult.


Sigit say one thousand time thank you to Pak Purwa for Pak Purwa understand and help.

My respect

Sigit.

[ariel]

I am usually trying to stay away from the Kris issues: it is far too complicated and specialized area of weaponry and I know far too little about it to utter anything intelligent.
But what we are talking about here is not tangible aspects of an intricately and beautifully shaped piece of metal (blade)and some organic material on top (handle), but some mystical and supernatural things.

Yes, I know, we are supposed to be sensitive to other peoples' beliefs but the last time I looked outside, it still was 21st century. We can and should learn cultural aspects of the weapons we collect including the local lore, but out of curiosity: does anybody around here seriously and rationally believe in "esoteric properties' and "mystical powers" of this lovely weapon?
If the answer is in the positive, I'll be requesting an application form for the Flat Earth Society.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by sigit subagio

Pak Purwa, Sigit will please to ask Pak Purwa to tell what means it:-Ing ngarso sing tuladha ing madya mbangun karsa tut wuri handayani.
.

Happy Ramadhan to you who are fasting,
and salaams to all,

Sorry to interupt the discussion but as we wait for Pak Purwa I think that I might be able to support the respected members of this discussion who hold the opinion that a gurindam is a form of Malay literature and a type of pantun. In traditional Jawa the term gurindam is not used. Traditional Malay poetry follows a strict form and the umbrella term pantun is used to describe the verses. Often the first two lines are merely opening rhymes for the last two lines:

Berburu ke padang datar
Mendapat rusa belang kaki
Berguru kepalang ajar
Bagai bunga kembang tak jadi

Hunt in the flat grass-land
Get a stag with speckled feet
Study unwhole-heartedly
Like a flower failing to bloom.

Yoni in keris terms was indeed introduced by the Solo Prince. I believe it is a confusing term and was accepted because it seemed right and was introduced by a Prince. If you must use the term yoni it should refer to th ganja, the lingga the wilah. However after walisanga Islamized keris these terms were no longer used in Jawa. Yoni was introduced by the Solo Prince to refer to the esoteric properties of the keris in a seminar in the 1980's and it is documented in EK Harsrinuksmo.

Ing ngarso sun (not sing) tulada, ing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani...

Is also a modern Jawa motto. It was thought up by Ki Hadjar Dewantara as the motto for teachers in Taman Siswa schools. Ki Hadjar himself was educated in Europe in around WWI and worked as a teacher in a Montessori school and was familiar with Steiner too. He came back to Indonesia to become the father of modern Indonesian education. A pity many of his principles are no longer followed. The motto means: In front I lead, in the midst I motivate, from behind I energise.

I also disagree that most Indonesians buy keris for their esoteric properties. I collect keris for their individual merit, the beauty and the workmanship, and the story the individual keris inherently brings with it as an artefact and this is what I learned from my father and his friends so has been going on for generations.

Warmest salaams to all,

KC

[Tim Simmons]

Talking about magic and weapons. That Wavooka chap who came up with the ghost dance and ghost shirts, there is a good illustration of magic found wanting in the face of science, or does or did his magic not count. Just a thought . Tim

[nechesh]

BTW, thanks Kiai for adding a bit more depth and understanding to this discussion in a clear and forthright manner. I greatly appreciate your citing of the sources of certain phrases and beliefs as well, allowing us to put these things into time frames and better understand their meanings and significance.