cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

purwacarita · 28th September 2005, 12:20 PM

Hi Boedhi. You don't need to apologize,

I'm open to accept definition/understanding of others. I hope you don't think of me as arguing your post because it only speaks of my understanding of a little piece of Bali view, which you imply your view to nechesh as mine. Thanx for the link, I guess my gurindam is not what Malayan said afterall.

...And with respect to Serat Centini and so, ...bla bla bla, I won't follow wrong opinions, I won't argue it either, ...but I'll post what I think is right (though possibly it is wrong). Right or wrong, it is still my country, but when it's wrong, I won't be ignorant not to tell what I think is right albeit the decision is not mine. I'll decide only for me.

Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that.

In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time.

Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it?

~Ing ngarso sing tuladha, ing madya mbangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

purwacarita · 28th September 2005, 12:37 PM

Hi Marto. I was told that gurindam is used since Singasari and Sriwijaya. I have posted the story. I'm quite surprised that it sounds strange to you all.

I'll add later, I got to go right now.

~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani

nechesh · 28th September 2005, 10:49 PM

Hi Purwacarita. I am trying very hard to understand you, but our ideas seem to be missing each other somehow.

I understand that communicating in English must be very difficult for you though your English is certainly better than my Indonesian

, but still, i am having continued problems with not only your use of what i thought as commonly understood words (i.e.Yoni/Lingga) but also what i thought were Indonesian words, many of which i am unable to find in any Indonesian/English dictionary. So i will be the second one (the first being one of your own countrymen) to ask you for the definition of "ruabhineda". Also, since the large majority of us do not speak your language, i would kindly request that if you use it that you please translate it. Understand that i have emense respect for your culture and sincerely welcome your imput and that of other Indonesians in these dicussions on keris. Your imput is vital to our understanding of both keris in context of Indonesia today and your culture in general. But twice you have written "~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani

"
Can you (or anyone) please translate so that we might better understand each other. If it is a statement that is only made for the benefit of your fellow countrymen, then i respectfully request that you make it to them directly in private messages, not on this open forum.
I wrote in my previous post: "The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself."
You responded to me by writing: "Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time."
Frankly i am confused and cannot tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. How is my understanding different than yours?

I would NEVER argue your right to post the things you believe are right, but while i understand and have great respect for those who can silently hold true to the things they believe and not challenge those who they think are mistaken or misguided, i am not so sure such a philosophy would be a good idea in the context of a place of learning such as this forum. If i, or anyone, were to let remarks they feel are questionable go unchallenged it would only encourge forumites who didn't know any better to accept them as truths and misinformation would spread. This has happened far too often in the keris world. Even books by well respected scholars in the field have given birth to much erroneous information which many collectors hold to to this day. Just because it is in a book doesn't make it true.

I admittedly do not know enough about all you say to tell you you are wrong. But i do know enough to question the things you say.

You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. Who should i believe as a seeker of truth about keris (and a few other things

). When i question them the answers come more easily and make more sense (and jive with what little i already know). When i question you i get misunderstanding, sarcasm and what i sense as a general distain for my culture (please tell me i am wrong?). Please help me understand this.

marto suwignyo · 29th September 2005, 12:02 AM

Pak Purwacarita, I regret that I have been misunderstood.

Your story is not at all strange. I think I have heard this story in one form or another previously, and I understand the ideas perfectly. Similarly, I understand the idea and practice of a gesture or action carrying an unspoken message. You and I both know that this is a part of Javanese culture and society, and anybody who lives in Javanese society needs to know how to read the message, and how to use the action to carry the message.

My only problem was with your use of the word "gurindam". However, after lengthy thought on this matter, I think I can see how it would be possible use the word as you have used it.

I do not in any way question your right to use language as you see fit. I regret that I was insufficiently astute to immediately understand your meaning. The fault was in my lack of sensitivity, not in your usage of language.

nechesh · 29th September 2005, 01:56 AM

Thanks Marto for coming foward to clear up this misunderstanding. It certainly is good to know that there is some understanding between countrymen here and it lessens the confusion for me at least to know that the two of you are in agreement on at least this single word "gurindam".
But i am afraid my issues here go further than this single word and i hope we can all come to a clearer understanding of each other soon. This doesn't mean we all need to agree, just understand.

purwacarita · 30th September 2005, 12:36 PM

Nechesh, you worte You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. I'm sorry that my post was read that way I guess I'm not good enough to use English language or maybe I often used English words which read politely by coutrymen (like me), but read disrespect by Englishmen. If you can quote specifically which part I sound like that, please do so so I can fix that. I won't edit my post, but will post the clarification. I hope it works for you and for the countrymen.

Your understanding of Yoni is diffenrent from mine. I understand it NOT as a representation of sex organ and I have posted on ruabhineda but you seem to skip it.

The words Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani in my modest understanding will read the ideal philosophy of life, where if we are in front of things or if we feel superior of more powerful than others, we should give constructive examples through our daily deeds. If we are among others or in community, we shall share our constructive spirit (not soul). If we are behind the scene we shall be the driving force to motivate others to contructiveness. I hope I'm not wrong.

About gurindam, thanx to Boedhi I have another understanding. My last understanding is as I posted that it is a gift with symbols of an unspeakable message, while the message is usually unspeakable, it is usually sarcastic in order to echo the message in bearer's mind. But having gurindam said in poem like the Malayan's, I think that I could be wrong in putting the name gurindam to call the gift. Perhaps the correct one is that gurindam is the sarcastic method of message delivery where keris, poem, gift etc are only the media. Thus I think in Malayan gurindam version in poem, the poem itself is not gurindam, but by reading it, ones will remember something like his duty or commitment, and so the poem serves the purpose as gurindam. A mild sarcastic message to us in order to remember our duty/commitment. There, I think it's better.

~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

It's now a gurindam.

sigit subagio · 15th October 2005, 03:33 AM

Pak Purwa, Sigit will please to ask Pak Purwa to tell what means it:-

Ing ngarso sing tuladha ing madya mbangun karsa tut wuri handayani.

Sigit very ashame and embaras because to ask this because Sigit Jawa pribumi and from Jember and parent from Matesih but Sigit no can Krama Inggil and already to ask to other people much and they not can understand also.

Please Pak Purwa can to write this with ngoko or with Bahasa Indonesia.

Please Pak Purwa no to write the filsafat however to write the word with ngoko or Bahasa Indonesia.

Please to forgive Sigit for stupid and for no good education because Sigit to cause Pak Purwa very much problem and difficult.

Sigit say one thousand time thank you to Pak Purwa for Pak Purwa understand and help.

My respect

Sigit.

Tim Simmons · 16th October 2005, 04:36 PM

Talking about magic and weapons. That Wavooka chap who came up with the ghost dance and ghost shirts, there is a good illustration of magic found wanting in the face of science, or does or did his magic not count. Just a thought . Tim

BluErf · 16th October 2005, 05:09 AM

Whoa, a lot of good discussion has transpired since I last looked at this post in early September.

It was a really informative look into the concept of 'Mahar' and more in the Javanese context. I'll just be 'sponging' off this thread.

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it?

The keris blade doesn't quite look like Empu Jeno's style, and also, I thought Empu Jeno would dress his kerises in Yogyakarta sheath and handle?

nechesh · 16th October 2005, 06:42 AM

First of all Ariel, there is a great deal of misunderstanding as to what magickal and mystical properties actually are. It's really hard to have a discussion about these things when we don't have a common definition of what we are talking about. If you choose to believe that the unseen world is non-existent i for one don't have any problem with that. Perhaps electricity, magnetism, gravity and even air itself also don't really exist because we can not see them.

Try reading a bit of modern physics if your interested in some deep mystic thought.

This doesn't really seem to be the proper forum to get into a debate as to whether or not such things exist. But to answer you question i suggest you pick up your application for your local branch of the Flat Earth Society.

ariel · 16th October 2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

First of all Ariel, there is a great deal of misunderstanding as to what magickal and mystical properties actually are. It's really hard to have a discussion about these things when we don't have a common definition of what we are talking about. If you choose to believe that the unseen world is non-existent i for one don't have any problem with that. Perhaps electricity, magnetism, gravity and even air itself also don't really exist because we can not see them.

Try reading a bit of modern physics if your interested in some deep mystic thought.

This doesn't really seem to be the proper forum to get into a debate as to whether or not such things exist. But to answer you question i suggest you pick up your application for your local branch of the Flat Earth Society.

To have my computer work, I need to connect it to the electrical outlet and if it falls off the desk it ends on the floor but not on the ceiling. Composition of air, its pressure and movement are easily measurable and you may try to hold your breath for a while or dive in your own bathtub to get a final proof of the air's existence. Where is the evidence that magic is real? I have recently read that 25% of Americans believe that the Sun rotates around the Earth .. Seems to me that Galileo died in vain...
As to the propriety of discussing such things on this Forum, I disagree. I have no problem with anybody maintaining his personal religious and occult beliefs. The minute these beliefs are expressed in connection with weapons (the topic of this Forum), they become a fair game for questioning. You would not hesitate to call me on the carpet if I posted here my personal belief that Shamshirs originally came from Nicaragua.

Rick · 16th October 2005, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

You would not hesitate to call me on the carpet if I posted here my personal belief that Shamshirs originally came from Nicaragua.

You mean they didn't !?!

Seriously Ariel , swords and mysticism are historically and inextricably entwined throughout most Eastern and many Western cultures ; the cruciform shape of the European sword of the 12th and 13 century crusaders for example representing the sword as an implement of God's will ; Thulfiqar and the religious significance of the bifurcated blade to Muslims .

Nowhere is this mysticism more evident than in the keris .
I can see no problem with letting keris enthusiasts hash this subject out in the forum providing they do so in a polite and civilised manner .
I would however very much like to see this discourse continue in English because it is the 'lingua franca' of this forum .

I agree with you that we are getting somewhat mired in this thread and I think it is due mostly to language differences and interpretation .

The EEW forum is a buffet of sorts ; when passing through the line if you find a particular dish unappealing then don't put it on your plate .

nechesh · 16th October 2005, 04:22 PM

My point Ariel is that you are "calling to the carpet" beliefs which are a matter of faith, not science. The measurement of the scientific phenomenon which you mention is all fine and good, but you must also remember that scientist have a way of developing methods of measurement that fit into the answers they are seeking. Probably why the answers keep changing as science continually develops "better" methods of measurement.(i just found out yesterday that Mt. Everest is actually 14 ft. shorter than previously thought

). So tell me, does sub-atomic material take the form of a particle or a wave? All depends on how you look at it.

Where is the evidence that magic is real? I don't need any. That's part of what faith is all about. My personal experiences are my own. I know what i know and don't need to qualify it by the scientfic methods of others. But i have had my own experiences with the unseen world which equal your experience with your computer's electric problems and picking it up off the floor after a fall.(i.e. they are very real to me)

I have no great need, however, to prove them to you or anyone else for that matter. While i would have little problem calling ones science to the carpet, i would personally think twice before calling ones faith there.

28th September 2005, 10:49 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Purwacarita. I am trying very hard to understand you, but our ideas seem to be missing each other somehow. I understand that communicating in English must be very difficult for you though your English is certainly better than my Indonesian , but still, i am having continued problems with not only your use of what i thought as commonly understood words (i.e.Yoni/Lingga) but also what i thought were Indonesian words, many of which i am unable to find in any Indonesian/English dictionary. So i will be the second one (the first being one of your own countrymen) to ask you for the definition of "ruabhineda". Also, since the large majority of us do not speak your language, i would kindly request that if you use it that you please translate it. Understand that i have emense respect for your culture and sincerely welcome your imput and that of other Indonesians in these dicussions on keris. Your imput is vital to our understanding of both keris in context of Indonesia today and your culture in general. But twice you have written "~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani " Can you (or anyone) please translate so that we might better understand each other. If it is a statement that is only made for the benefit of your fellow countrymen, then i respectfully request that you make it to them directly in private messages, not on this open forum. I wrote in my previous post: "The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself." You responded to me by writing: "Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time." Frankly i am confused and cannot tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. How is my understanding different than yours? I would NEVER argue your right to post the things you believe are right, but while i understand and have great respect for those who can silently hold true to the things they believe and not challenge those who they think are mistaken or misguided, i am not so sure such a philosophy would be a good idea in the context of a place of learning such as this forum. If i, or anyone, were to let remarks they feel are questionable go unchallenged it would only encourge forumites who didn't know any better to accept them as truths and misinformation would spread. This has happened far too often in the keris world. Even books by well respected scholars in the field have given birth to much erroneous information which many collectors hold to to this day. Just because it is in a book doesn't make it true. I admittedly do not know enough about all you say to tell you you are wrong. But i do know enough to question the things you say. You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. Who should i believe as a seeker of truth about keris (and a few other things ). When i question them the answers come more easily and make more sense (and jive with what little i already know). When i question you i get misunderstanding, sarcasm and what i sense as a general distain for my culture (please tell me i am wrong?). Please help me understand this. Last edited by nechesh; 28th September 2005 at 11:09 PM.

28th September 2005, 12:20 PM	#1
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi Boedhi. You don't need to apologize, I'm open to accept definition/understanding of others. I hope you don't think of me as arguing your post because it only speaks of my understanding of a little piece of Bali view, which you imply your view to nechesh as mine. Thanx for the link, I guess my gurindam is not what Malayan said afterall. ...And with respect to Serat Centini and so, ...bla bla bla, I won't follow wrong opinions, I won't argue it either, ...but I'll post what I think is right (though possibly it is wrong). Right or wrong, it is still my country, but when it's wrong, I won't be ignorant not to tell what I think is right albeit the decision is not mine. I'll decide only for me. Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time. Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it? ~Ing ngarso sing tuladha, ing madya mbangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

28th September 2005, 12:37 PM	#2
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi Marto. I was told that gurindam is used since Singasari and Sriwijaya. I have posted the story. I'm quite surprised that it sounds strange to you all. I'll add later, I got to go right now. ~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani

29th September 2005, 12:02 AM	#4
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Pak Purwacarita, I regret that I have been misunderstood. Your story is not at all strange. I think I have heard this story in one form or another previously, and I understand the ideas perfectly. Similarly, I understand the idea and practice of a gesture or action carrying an unspoken message. You and I both know that this is a part of Javanese culture and society, and anybody who lives in Javanese society needs to know how to read the message, and how to use the action to carry the message. My only problem was with your use of the word "gurindam". However, after lengthy thought on this matter, I think I can see how it would be possible use the word as you have used it. I do not in any way question your right to use language as you see fit. I regret that I was insufficiently astute to immediately understand your meaning. The fault was in my lack of sensitivity, not in your usage of language.

29th September 2005, 01:56 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks Marto for coming foward to clear up this misunderstanding. It certainly is good to know that there is some understanding between countrymen here and it lessens the confusion for me at least to know that the two of you are in agreement on at least this single word "gurindam". But i am afraid my issues here go further than this single word and i hope we can all come to a clearer understanding of each other soon. This doesn't mean we all need to agree, just understand.

30th September 2005, 12:36 PM	#6
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Nechesh, you worte You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. I'm sorry that my post was read that way I guess I'm not good enough to use English language or maybe I often used English words which read politely by coutrymen (like me), but read disrespect by Englishmen. If you can quote specifically which part I sound like that, please do so so I can fix that. I won't edit my post, but will post the clarification. I hope it works for you and for the countrymen. Your understanding of Yoni is diffenrent from mine. I understand it NOT as a representation of sex organ and I have posted on ruabhineda but you seem to skip it. The words Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani in my modest understanding will read the ideal philosophy of life, where if we are in front of things or if we feel superior of more powerful than others, we should give constructive examples through our daily deeds. If we are among others or in community, we shall share our constructive spirit (not soul). If we are behind the scene we shall be the driving force to motivate others to contructiveness. I hope I'm not wrong. About gurindam, thanx to Boedhi I have another understanding. My last understanding is as I posted that it is a gift with symbols of an unspeakable message, while the message is usually unspeakable, it is usually sarcastic in order to echo the message in bearer's mind. But having gurindam said in poem like the Malayan's, I think that I could be wrong in putting the name gurindam to call the gift. Perhaps the correct one is that gurindam is the sarcastic method of message delivery where keris, poem, gift etc are only the media. Thus I think in Malayan gurindam version in poem, the poem itself is not gurindam, but by reading it, ones will remember something like his duty or commitment, and so the poem serves the purpose as gurindam. A mild sarcastic message to us in order to remember our duty/commitment. There, I think it's better. ~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani. It's now a gurindam.

15th October 2005, 03:33 AM	#7
sigit subagio Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2	Pak Purwa, Sigit will please to ask Pak Purwa to tell what means it:- Ing ngarso sing tuladha ing madya mbangun karsa tut wuri handayani. Sigit very ashame and embaras because to ask this because Sigit Jawa pribumi and from Jember and parent from Matesih but Sigit no can Krama Inggil and already to ask to other people much and they not can understand also. Please Pak Purwa can to write this with ngoko or with Bahasa Indonesia. Please Pak Purwa no to write the filsafat however to write the word with ngoko or Bahasa Indonesia. Please to forgive Sigit for stupid and for no good education because Sigit to cause Pak Purwa very much problem and difficult. Sigit say one thousand time thank you to Pak Purwa for Pak Purwa understand and help. My respect Sigit.

16th October 2005, 04:36 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Talking about magic and weapons. That Wavooka chap who came up with the ghost dance and ghost shirts, there is a good illustration of magic found wanting in the face of science, or does or did his magic not count. Just a thought . Tim

16th October 2005, 06:42 AM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	First of all Ariel, there is a great deal of misunderstanding as to what magickal and mystical properties actually are. It's really hard to have a discussion about these things when we don't have a common definition of what we are talking about. If you choose to believe that the unseen world is non-existent i for one don't have any problem with that. Perhaps electricity, magnetism, gravity and even air itself also don't really exist because we can not see them. Try reading a bit of modern physics if your interested in some deep mystic thought. This doesn't really seem to be the proper forum to get into a debate as to whether or not such things exist. But to answer you question i suggest you pick up your application for your local branch of the Flat Earth Society.

16th October 2005, 04:22 PM	#13
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	My point Ariel is that you are "calling to the carpet" beliefs which are a matter of faith, not science. The measurement of the scientific phenomenon which you mention is all fine and good, but you must also remember that scientist have a way of developing methods of measurement that fit into the answers they are seeking. Probably why the answers keep changing as science continually develops "better" methods of measurement.(i just found out yesterday that Mt. Everest is actually 14 ft. shorter than previously thought ). So tell me, does sub-atomic material take the form of a particle or a wave? All depends on how you look at it. Where is the evidence that magic is real? I don't need any. That's part of what faith is all about. My personal experiences are my own. I know what i know and don't need to qualify it by the scientfic methods of others. But i have had my own experiences with the unseen world which equal your experience with your computer's electric problems and picking it up off the floor after a fall.(i.e. they are very real to me) I have no great need, however, to prove them to you or anyone else for that matter. While i would have little problem calling ones science to the carpet, i would personally think twice before calling ones faith there.