Need help on German blade inscription

fernando · 14th January 2013, 04:11 PM

Thank you so much for the suggestion Dirk, but the Cheval-Leger version doesn't fit in it.
Besides, that would imply in a Cavalry blade, which is not the case of this narrow small sword example.

fernando · 3rd February 2013, 12:15 PM

I have just acquired this sword.
Within soon i will be in a condition to (try and) take better pictures of the enigmatic inscription.

fernando · 11th February 2013, 03:24 PM

Surely a word started by CHAN didn't make much sense.
Only that the C turned out to be a O and there was another letter before that ... although almost completely faded.
But common sense and a little reasoning made me figure out that this is the name of King Dom João in period German lettering; IOHANES.
On the other side of the blade, also the I for Ihn Solingen is completely faded but, the (only) partialy faded H helped me discern the right phrase.
My only problem is that we had two Kings with the same name within a period close enough to put the doubt on which it was. Although Dom João VI was firstly Regent (his Queen mother was mentally ill) and later King between 1799 and 1826, the period covering this sword model, i am more inclined for prior King Dom João V, who reigned between 1706-1750. As we may see documented, Military Officers, having to purchase the swords by themselves, often used their ancestors blades, both for economical as for sentimental reasons. It is therefore my conviction that this is a XVIII century blade ... until further notice

.

cornelistromp · 11th February 2013, 06:11 PM

Hi Fernando,

it is a smallsword with a shortened rapier blade from the second half of the 17th century, which is used again 100 years later.
there is not Iohanes Portugal engraved (this makes no sense

) but Iohanes Beugel a famous swordsmith from solingen in the second half of the 17thC. his mastermark was a Moors head.

best,
jasper

Pukka Bundook · 11th February 2013, 06:36 PM

Well Jasper,

You soon sorted this one out!!

Best wishes,
Richard.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2013, 08:00 PM

Excellently reasoned Nando! and I have always admired your tenacity at working to solve these kinds of conundrums, and while not ultimately the final solution, it was beautifully thought out. The main thing is that your reassessment of the letters provided the impetus for Jaspers solution regarding the Solingen maker noted.
I must admit that I pored over this inscription many times, but could not offer a single viable suggestion. What is most interesting is the unusual character of some of these early letters.

fernando · 11th February 2013, 08:26 PM

Well Jasper, i bow to your expertize and turn the back to my silly presumption

.
Since the begining of the thread that i assumed the second word would be Portugal and only the first word was the nut to crack.
So right was author José A. Faria e Silva that, when mentioning that earlier blades were used by Officers to mount on their Regulation swords, stated that they used to reach out for either XVII century blades shortened for the purpose, or XVIII examples that were a little shorter than the Regulation.
Dank u wel, Jasper

cornelistromp · 11th February 2013, 09:29 PM

Hi Fernando,

no it has nothing to do with expertise, I am habituated to old script in sword Fullers and my language and Dutch names are like German names.
see for example the e in Clemens meigen (picture), the 17th century E resembles a kind of character that looks like EC combination.

I apologize that I have not previously earlier responded to the script in your sword

VBW
Jasper

11th February 2013, 03:24 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	SOLVED Surely a word started by CHAN didn't make much sense. Only that the C turned out to be a O and there was another letter before that ... although almost completely faded. But common sense and a little reasoning made me figure out that this is the name of King Dom João in period German lettering; IOHANES. On the other side of the blade, also the I for Ihn Solingen is completely faded but, the (only) partialy faded H helped me discern the right phrase. My only problem is that we had two Kings with the same name within a period close enough to put the doubt on which it was. Although Dom João VI was firstly Regent (his Queen mother was mentally ill) and later King between 1799 and 1826, the period covering this sword model, i am more inclined for prior King Dom João V, who reigned between 1706-1750. As we may see documented, Military Officers, having to purchase the swords by themselves, often used their ancestors blades, both for economical as for sentimental reasons. It is therefore my conviction that this is a XVIII century blade ... until further notice . Attached Images

11th February 2013, 08:26 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Shame Well Jasper, i bow to your expertize and turn the back to my silly presumption . Since the begining of the thread that i assumed the second word would be Portugal and only the first word was the nut to crack. So right was author José A. Faria e Silva that, when mentioning that earlier blades were used by Officers to mount on their Regulation swords, stated that they used to reach out for either XVII century blades shortened for the purpose, or XVIII examples that were a little shorter than the Regulation. Dank u wel, Jasper

11th February 2013, 09:29 PM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Fernando, no it has nothing to do with expertise, I am habituated to old script in sword Fullers and my language and Dutch names are like German names. see for example the e in Clemens meigen (picture), the 17th century E resembles a kind of character that looks like EC combination. I apologize that I have not previously earlier responded to the script in your sword VBW Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 11th February 2013 at 09:40 PM.

14th January 2013, 04:11 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much for the suggestion Dirk, but the Cheval-Leger version doesn't fit in it. Besides, that would imply in a Cavalry blade, which is not the case of this narrow small sword example.

3rd February 2013, 12:15 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have just acquired this sword. Within soon i will be in a condition to (try and) take better pictures of the enigmatic inscription.

11th February 2013, 06:11 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Fernando, it is a smallsword with a shortened rapier blade from the second half of the 17th century, which is used again 100 years later. there is not Iohanes Portugal engraved (this makes no sense ) but Iohanes Beugel a famous swordsmith from solingen in the second half of the 17thC. his mastermark was a Moors head. best, jasper

11th February 2013, 06:36 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Well Jasper, You soon sorted this one out!! Best wishes, Richard.

11th February 2013, 08:00 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Excellently reasoned Nando! and I have always admired your tenacity at working to solve these kinds of conundrums, and while not ultimately the final solution, it was beautifully thought out. The main thing is that your reassessment of the letters provided the impetus for Jaspers solution regarding the Solingen maker noted. I must admit that I pored over this inscription many times, but could not offer a single viable suggestion. What is most interesting is the unusual character of some of these early letters.