Bedouin Sword for Discussion

TVV · 31st December 2012, 07:13 AM

Are we 100% sure that those crude hilts with ringed crossguards are Bedouin, and not say, a Yemeni interpretation of the Zanzibari guard for example? Has someone with local knowledge been able to confirm the Bedouin attribution?
Regards,
Teodor

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st December 2012, 07:39 AM

Salaams TVV..Good point. These are very common in souks in Sanaa, Sharjah and Muscat etc etc ..where they ship out with the unsuspecting tourist market. It is known that they are recent rehilts "matched" in those centres. The hilts are commonly mass produced or at least knocked out in large numbers in Sanaa using crude copied designs and slapped on any blade that comes to hand. Occasionally and more by accident than design a hilt gets matched on a reasonable European blade...but that is more by pure chance. These are tourist swords I'm sorry to say.

I will pass by and see if there are any in the Buraimi souk...there's normally a few. My advice is to avoid these.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Atlantia · 31st December 2012, 08:17 AM

Hi Stu,

Great looking sword.
Looks like a real fighter! Love the broad wide blade.
Any marks on the blade? Can we see some close-ups of the fullers?

kahnjar1 · 31st December 2012, 09:39 AM

Perhaps if these are as common as you say, you could provide some pics of them actually in the Souks.
This is NOT a tourist piece, unlike some of the Replicas/Rebuilds coming out of Oman. This piece is too old and very functional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams TVV..Good point. These are very common in souks in Sanaa, Sharjah and Muscat etc etc ..where they ship out with the unsuspecting tourist market. It is known that they are recent rehilts "matched" in those centres. The hilts are commonly mass produced or at least knocked out in large numbers in Sanaa using crude copied designs and slapped on any blade that comes to hand. Occasionally and more by accident than design a hilt gets matched on a reasonable European blade...but that is more by pure chance. These are tourist swords I'm sorry to say.

I will pass by and see if there are any in the Buraimi souk...there's normally a few. My advice is to avoid these.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st December 2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Perhaps if these are as common as you say, you could provide some pics of them actually in the Souks.
This is NOT a tourist piece, unlike some of the Replicas/Rebuilds coming out of Oman. This piece is too old and very functional.

Yes of course in a few minutes... the souks are awash with them...on the other hand I wouldnt want to make a presentation which could be misconstrued as commercially biased since that could hurt the sensibilities of certain individuals... not that I would do that..of course. That is not to discourage people going to the souk... its great fun and full of weird stuff; some real, some not. I find it irresistable and reccommend it to all visitors.

Anyway these fakes...they sometimes have a good blade.. its just pot luck...

Its just what sells..The tourists scoop them up all over the place. I can show scores of them all stacked up in the souk in Mutrah and I know theres a load in Sharjah they haul in box loads from India and Yemen. I saw bundles of Tulwar in Sharjah the other day...same situation with those...they look alright but they aren't. Theres a complete back street industry been knocking these out for tourists for donkeys years in Sanaa and India etc.

Im just off to Buraimi Souk theres some over there. I know the shop owner ... I will ask him where he gets them. He is Yemeni... so I guess... Sanaa? Thats where Muscat gets their bulk of junk. There aren't (well maybe about 3 a month) any tourists in Yemen so swords are pouring out ~exporting to surrounding souks. I just rang up the Muscat boys and when they could stop laughing they said its just "bread and butter"...they sell loads of them... they are in the right price range to be carted off by tourists off cruise ships who often dont even ask if they are genuine..

I imagine they also exist in just about every souk from here to Morocco, Egypt, Yemen UAE and in India etc... serious buyers beware. The proper Nimchas are a cut above these.

I shall include later an article in the "Souks of Oman" thread on how to spot fakes.

They are souvenirs for tourists.

Photo.
( See below Yemeni sword put up for tourists to buy...typefied by a not bad looking blade(new) Picture taken by me tonight at about 9pm. 31 Dec 2012. Buraimi Souk. According to the store owner who is Yemeni ~Hilt knocked up in a backyard workshop in Sanaa, Scabbard made to order..same souk. Same applies to Mutrah and other souks in that traders in this case from the Habaabi region in Saudia adjacent Yemen and offloaded this. Apparently these weapons can be further aged by being dropped in car battery acid and then buried in the ground. The same can be done to scabbards..Looks like it came out of a similar workshop to the project sword at #1.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kahnjar1 · 31st December 2012, 07:37 PM

You seem to have a good knowledge of fakes, but then I suppose that is to be expected.
Anyway its "each to their own", and if you want to call this item a fake, then go ahead.
At least there is some "politeness" used in describing other fakes posted on this Forum.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Yes of course in a few minutes... the souks are awash with them...on the other hand I wouldnt want to make a presentation which could be misconstrued as commercially biased since that could hurt the sensibilities of certain individuals... not that I would do that..of course. That is not to discourage people going to the souk... its great fun and full of weird stuff; some real, some not. I find it irresistable and reccommend it to all visitors.

Anyway these fakes...they sometimes have a good blade.. its just pot luck...

Its just what sells..The tourists scoop them up all over the place. I can show scores of them all stacked up in the souk in Mutrah and I know theres a load in Sharjah they haul in box loads from India and Yemen. I saw bundles of Tulwar in Sharjah the other day...same situation with those...they look alright but they aren't. Theres a complete back street industry been knocking these out for tourists for donkeys years in Sanaa and India etc.

Im just off to Buraimi Souk theres some over there. I know the shop owner ... I will ask him where he gets them. He is Yemeni... so I guess... Sanaa? Thats where Muscat gets their bulk of junk. There aren't (well maybe about 3 a month) any tourists in Yemen so swords are pouring out ~exporting to surrounding souks. I just rang up the Muscat boys and when they could stop laughing they said its just "bread and butter"...they sell loads of them... they are in the right price range to be carted off by tourists off cruise ships who often dont even ask if they are genuine..

I imagine they also exist in just about every souk from here to Morocco, Egypt, Yemen UAE and in India etc... serious buyers beware. The proper Nimchas are a cut above these.

I shall include later an article in the "Souks of Oman" thread on how to spot fakes.

They are souvenirs for tourists.

Photo.
( See below Yemeni sword put up for tourists to buy...typefied by a not bad looking blade(new) Picture taken by me tonight at about 9pm. 31 Dec 2012. Buraimi Souk. According to the store owner who is Yemeni ~Hilt knocked up in a backyard workshop in Sanaa, Scabbard made to order..same souk. Same applies to Mutrah and other souks in that traders in this case from the Habaabi region in Saudia adjacent Yemen and offloaded this. Apparently these weapons can be further aged by being dropped in car battery acid and then buried in the ground. The same can be done to scabbards..Looks like it came out of a similar workshop to the project sword at #1.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

TVV · 31st December 2012, 08:41 PM

I understand and share your disappointment, but ultimately find it better to accept the facts. And in the case of these swords with varying blades and crude hilts imitating the hilts of seifs from Zanzibar, the facts point to a modern production, likely coming from Yemen and not intended for battle, but for the souvenir trade.

If it is of any consolation, I am the (not so) proud owner of one of these, except it is in much worse shape than yours:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8997

You can see some more examples in this old thread about the souks in Riyadh:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3974

I am not sure that I would go as far as to label these swords "fakes", since the word "fake" implies an intent to deceive, and these are so crude that it seems unlikely that anyone is really trying to pass them off as authentic 19th century examples. These swords seem to be produced to satisfy a certain demand, rather than to deceive collectors like you and me: we just happened to make a mistake due to insufficient knowledge of the local souks. The blade on yours looks quite nice and is probably antique. It may have even been used within the culture in a different dress before.

I also do not feel that Ibrahim's post's intent was to offend: as someone who has the benefit of exposure to all the modern sword production in the area, he is uniquely qialified to educate us on it. I may not agree with him on absolutely everything, but I appreciate his local perspective and the knowledge he brings, and in this case, I feel that unfortunately he is correct.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 31st December 2012, 09:38 PM

Very well put Teodor, and I very much agree. I personally am not in favor of the 'fake' term despite the fact that there are certainly obvious cases that deserve that description, however sometimes it may be inadvertantly used. I think Ibrahiim does well in helping us become more aware of the variations and types of weapons offered in many of the circumstances he has experienced, and it is not easy to be explicit or candid in explaining these things without sounding harsh. Sometimes the poor standards present in commercial traffic in many examples can be frustrating, especially for those of us working to study the history of weapons forms, and that can sometimes creep into comments.

Actually these ringed hilts do appear to be Yemeni versions or at least seem believed to be from Zanzibar from around the 1960s from one I acquired and information from its source. Some earlier research notes these from Zanzibar (Cavalierre; Jacob) and Buttin considers the examples he shows (1933) as 17th-18th century, so the form seems quite old.Actually these rings were a feature seen on Italian sword forms from 16th century which influenced others as more complex guards developed.

While many of these, as noted, have substantial blades and likely were for actual use, it does seem that the more current markets are indeed producing examples more to satisfy souvenier demands (as seen by the examples Ibrahiim has posted with poorly defined fullers).

I think the Bedouin classification is pretty broadly used, and certainly could refer to any of the tribal groups over most of the Peninsula and other areas.
I have always felt that many of these weapons were intended for actual tribal wear/use but with the knowledge that they would be sold as required to tourists or others. Some with clearly inadequate blades would be the exception.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th January 2013, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I understand and share your disappointment, but ultimately find it better to accept the facts. And in the case of these swords with varying blades and crude hilts imitating the hilts of seifs from Zanzibar, the facts point to a modern production, likely coming from Yemen and not intended for battle, but for the souvenir trade.

If it is of any consolation, I am the (not so) proud owner of one of these, except it is in much worse shape than yours:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8997

You can see some more examples in this old thread about the souks in Riyadh:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3974

I am not sure that I would go as far as to label these swords "fakes", since the word "fake" implies an intent to deceive, and these are so crude that it seems unlikely that anyone is really trying to pass them off as authentic 19th century examples. These swords seem to be produced to satisfy a certain demand, rather than to deceive collectors like you and me: we just happened to make a mistake due to insufficient knowledge of the local souks. The blade on yours looks quite nice and is probably antique. It may have even been used within the culture in a different dress before.

I also do not feel that Ibrahim's post's intent was to offend: as someone who has the benefit of exposure to all the modern sword production in the area, he is uniquely qialified to educate us on it. I may not agree with him on absolutely everything, but I appreciate his local perspective and the knowledge he brings, and in this case, I feel that unfortunately he is correct.

Regards,
Teodor

Salaams TVV...Your curved sword looks like a "Luckhouse and Gunter" imported German blade for the Ethiopian market configured typically with two full length florally decorated fullers and throat stamps etc. Could well have simply slipped onto the bulk blades market and re hilted for the souks; Saudia or Yemen.

With an Ethiopian hilt it would be superb...and correct.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

DaveA · 5th January 2013, 04:34 AM

Thank you Ibrahiim al Balooshi. I know your time is valuable so I am thankful every time you post your well documented wisdom on this forum.

With so many artificially-aged items in the market to beguile the innocent novice collector, may I suggest to the moderators that it may be time to create or update a sticky thread with information such as Ibrahiim has posted?

I dearly hope the following says something like 'Happy New Year"!

سنة جديدة سعيدة

Best regards,

David

31st December 2012, 07:13 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Are we 100% sure that those crude hilts with ringed crossguards are Bedouin, and not say, a Yemeni interpretation of the Zanzibari guard for example? Has someone with local knowledge been able to confirm the Bedouin attribution? Regards, Teodor

31st December 2012, 07:39 AM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams TVV..Good point. These are very common in souks in Sanaa, Sharjah and Muscat etc etc ..where they ship out with the unsuspecting tourist market. It is known that they are recent rehilts "matched" in those centres. The hilts are commonly mass produced or at least knocked out in large numbers in Sanaa using crude copied designs and slapped on any blade that comes to hand. Occasionally and more by accident than design a hilt gets matched on a reasonable European blade...but that is more by pure chance. These are tourist swords I'm sorry to say. I will pass by and see if there are any in the Buraimi souk...there's normally a few. My advice is to avoid these. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

31st December 2012, 08:17 AM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Stu, Great looking sword. Looks like a real fighter! Love the broad wide blade. Any marks on the blade? Can we see some close-ups of the fullers?

31st December 2012, 08:41 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	I understand and share your disappointment, but ultimately find it better to accept the facts. And in the case of these swords with varying blades and crude hilts imitating the hilts of seifs from Zanzibar, the facts point to a modern production, likely coming from Yemen and not intended for battle, but for the souvenir trade. If it is of any consolation, I am the (not so) proud owner of one of these, except it is in much worse shape than yours: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8997 You can see some more examples in this old thread about the souks in Riyadh: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3974 I am not sure that I would go as far as to label these swords "fakes", since the word "fake" implies an intent to deceive, and these are so crude that it seems unlikely that anyone is really trying to pass them off as authentic 19th century examples. These swords seem to be produced to satisfy a certain demand, rather than to deceive collectors like you and me: we just happened to make a mistake due to insufficient knowledge of the local souks. The blade on yours looks quite nice and is probably antique. It may have even been used within the culture in a different dress before. I also do not feel that Ibrahim's post's intent was to offend: as someone who has the benefit of exposure to all the modern sword production in the area, he is uniquely qialified to educate us on it. I may not agree with him on absolutely everything, but I appreciate his local perspective and the knowledge he brings, and in this case, I feel that unfortunately he is correct. Regards, Teodor

31st December 2012, 09:38 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,457	Very well put Teodor, and I very much agree. I personally am not in favor of the 'fake' term despite the fact that there are certainly obvious cases that deserve that description, however sometimes it may be inadvertantly used. I think Ibrahiim does well in helping us become more aware of the variations and types of weapons offered in many of the circumstances he has experienced, and it is not easy to be explicit or candid in explaining these things without sounding harsh. Sometimes the poor standards present in commercial traffic in many examples can be frustrating, especially for those of us working to study the history of weapons forms, and that can sometimes creep into comments. Actually these ringed hilts do appear to be Yemeni versions or at least seem believed to be from Zanzibar from around the 1960s from one I acquired and information from its source. Some earlier research notes these from Zanzibar (Cavalierre; Jacob) and Buttin considers the examples he shows (1933) as 17th-18th century, so the form seems quite old.Actually these rings were a feature seen on Italian sword forms from 16th century which influenced others as more complex guards developed. While many of these, as noted, have substantial blades and likely were for actual use, it does seem that the more current markets are indeed producing examples more to satisfy souvenier demands (as seen by the examples Ibrahiim has posted with poorly defined fullers). I think the Bedouin classification is pretty broadly used, and certainly could refer to any of the tribal groups over most of the Peninsula and other areas. I have always felt that many of these weapons were intended for actual tribal wear/use but with the knowledge that they would be sold as required to tourists or others. Some with clearly inadequate blades would be the exception.

5th January 2013, 04:34 AM	#10
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 417	Thank you Ibrahiim al Balooshi. I know your time is valuable so I am thankful every time you post your well documented wisdom on this forum. With so many artificially-aged items in the market to beguile the innocent novice collector, may I suggest to the moderators that it may be time to create or update a sticky thread with information such as Ibrahiim has posted? I dearly hope the following says something like 'Happy New Year"! سنة جديدة سعيدة Best regards, David