Of Saifs and Sossun Pata

Jim McDougall · 28th December 2012, 05:40 AM

Far from my usual fields of study, but to me it does seem tempting to associate these Arabian sa'if hilts to the sharply canted hilts of the klewang of certain forms. While the highly stylized hilts of many of these and other Indonesian and Malay weapons seem to represent zoomorphic forms of indiscernible nature, the sharply canted hilt may have inspired Arab traders to adopt such forms.
The hilt from the article by Goetz shown as one of the oldest Mughal weapons in the original post is attributed to Sultan Akbar c.1603 as noted, but curiously in the Goetz article the hilt is stated to be from a Malay kris.
This seems an odd attribution, and it does not seem that this canted hilt style developed into any Indian sword form I know of offhand.

In the book, "Weapons:The Diagram Group" (1980, p.36, #13) the Arabian sa'if of this discussion is described as having a distinctive pommel, and 'found wherever there have been Arab communities'. This suggests that the hilt form was widely known throughout Arab trade routes, but of course does not specify where it might have originated.

These type hilts seem of course very close to the hilt shape of the well known Moroccan sa'if familiarly called the nimcha, which seem to have been present in that form into the earlier years of the 17th century. The main difference would be the sharper cant and triple projection theme. The 1603 Mughal hilt is tempting but to me seems more of a singular representation of outside influence. I have always noticed that the versions of the baskethilt khanda in Hindu colonized regions are typically sharply canted if I recall correctly. Perhaps this indicates the preference for this affectation outside the subcontinent proper.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th December 2012, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Far from my usual fields of study, but to me it does seem tempting to associate these Arabian sa'if hilts to the sharply canted hilts of the klewang of certain forms. While the highly stylized hilts of many of these and other Indonesian and Malay weapons seem to represent zoomorphic forms of indiscernible nature, the sharply canted hilt may have inspired Arab traders to adopt such forms.
The hilt from the article by Goetz shown as one of the oldest Mughal weapons in the original post is attributed to Sultan Akbar c.1603 as noted, but curiously in the Goetz article the hilt is stated to be from a Malay kris.
This seems an odd attribution, and it does not seem that this canted hilt style developed into any Indian sword form I know of offhand.

In the book, "Weapons:The Diagram Group" (1980, p.36, #13) the Arabian sa'if of this discussion is described as having a distinctive pommel, and 'found wherever there have been Arab communities'. This suggests that the hilt form was widely known throughout Arab trade routes, but of course does not specify where it might have originated.

These type hilts seem of course very close to the hilt shape of the well known Moroccan sa'if familiarly called the nimcha, which seem to have been present in that form into the earlier years of the 17th century. The main difference would be the sharper cant and triple projection theme. The 1603 Mughal hilt is tempting but to me seems more of a singular representation of outside influence. I have always noticed that the versions of the baskethilt khanda in Hindu colonized regions are typically sharply canted if I recall correctly. Perhaps this indicates the preference for this affectation outside the subcontinent proper.

Salaams Jim ~ In the far off distant past (excuse for I cant remember when !) I noted that the shape of the Zanzibar hilt could have come from either the Moroccan side across Africa by land route or around Africa with the Portuguese... or... from further east... I think the latter link needs looking at... It may indeed be from there

It would be astonishing if that were the case since we also attribute (possibly) that the Kastane may have been influenced by Moorish traders (possibly) operating sea routes between Europe (Red Sea) Africa and Asia whereas it has been common practice to ignore the influence from the far east.

We may have the whole thing inside out !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 28th December 2012, 05:51 PM

In the study of ethnographic arms, probably nothing is more challenging than entering the highly subjective area of the development and significance of possible representations in hilt forms and elements. With blades it is fairly clear which types of blades were favored and used in certain regions of various cultural spheres, though often confounded by the entry of trade blades into the equation.These however often have revealing markings helping trace thier possible provenance.

With hilts, these are of course usually locally applied, but when variations of ultra-stylized shapes and forms evolve it is difficult to determine from what point within complex trade routes over vast distances and cultural spheres these might have begun. Factor in the chronological element with constant changes in the various geopolitical presences along these routes and colonial regions and the whole matter is compounded considerably.

In my opinion the character of these triple prong, canted hilts may very well derive from the regions to the east and perhaps from the stylized zoologically oriented hilts of the tribal people there. These are so vaguely stylized that the creatures represented have, as far as I have known, never been definitively identified. They do have the canted configuration seen in these hilts, though the characteristic nock for the back of the hand in the cant of the grip/pommel I am not sure can be specifically traced to these type hilts.
These profiled hilts of the triple prong; the so called 'hawks head' of Southern Arabia, Yemen and the Moroccan/Algerian sa'ifs all have this distinctive hand nock. As far as the Moroccan 'nimcha' version of these, I am personally of the opinion that these derive from the Arabian swords via trade and colonial activity there. An interesting side note is that many 18th century Spanish colonial espadas carry this hand nock feature.

The arrival of this type of highly stylized zoomorphic hilt I would think may well have arrived in India via Arab trade moving westward. As often the case, direct contact is not necessarily the case, as interchange in the various posts and trade entrepots throughout these routes were the confluence of commerce and culture from numerous points and directions.
It would be interesting to know of any subsequent Indian hilt designs which might have evolved from the Akbar example from Goetz' article and post 1603.

By the same token, it would be interesting to consider whether the interesting triple point hilts which are attributed in Elgood to Hadhramaut with thier production in some degree to Hyderabad, might have developed there from the 'prototype' (?) of the Akbar sword. To determine that , of course we would have to discover how prevalent the production of these actually was in Hyderabad; the earliest provenanced examples, and compare those with earliest provenanced examples of these elsewhere.

A great topic for research and discussion, and Lofty, Im glad you revived this thread! With your clear interest in this type of sword, I would be most interested in your thoughts with aspects discussed here so far.

All best regards,
Jim

A.alnakkas · 29th December 2012, 01:44 PM

Hey Jim,

I own one of these. The blade on mine is of Indian origin from what I can tell based on my experience.

A photo posted by CharlesS awhile ago shows a Yemeni man wielding one of these swords so there is alot of evidence that supports it being used by Yemenis.

Not much I can add except that I am appreciative of the info said here!

28th December 2012, 05:40 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Far from my usual fields of study, but to me it does seem tempting to associate these Arabian sa'if hilts to the sharply canted hilts of the klewang of certain forms. While the highly stylized hilts of many of these and other Indonesian and Malay weapons seem to represent zoomorphic forms of indiscernible nature, the sharply canted hilt may have inspired Arab traders to adopt such forms. The hilt from the article by Goetz shown as one of the oldest Mughal weapons in the original post is attributed to Sultan Akbar c.1603 as noted, but curiously in the Goetz article the hilt is stated to be from a Malay kris. This seems an odd attribution, and it does not seem that this canted hilt style developed into any Indian sword form I know of offhand. In the book, "Weapons:The Diagram Group" (1980, p.36, #13) the Arabian sa'if of this discussion is described as having a distinctive pommel, and 'found wherever there have been Arab communities'. This suggests that the hilt form was widely known throughout Arab trade routes, but of course does not specify where it might have originated. These type hilts seem of course very close to the hilt shape of the well known Moroccan sa'if familiarly called the nimcha, which seem to have been present in that form into the earlier years of the 17th century. The main difference would be the sharper cant and triple projection theme. The 1603 Mughal hilt is tempting but to me seems more of a singular representation of outside influence. I have always noticed that the versions of the baskethilt khanda in Hindu colonized regions are typically sharply canted if I recall correctly. Perhaps this indicates the preference for this affectation outside the subcontinent proper.

28th December 2012, 05:51 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	In the study of ethnographic arms, probably nothing is more challenging than entering the highly subjective area of the development and significance of possible representations in hilt forms and elements. With blades it is fairly clear which types of blades were favored and used in certain regions of various cultural spheres, though often confounded by the entry of trade blades into the equation.These however often have revealing markings helping trace thier possible provenance. With hilts, these are of course usually locally applied, but when variations of ultra-stylized shapes and forms evolve it is difficult to determine from what point within complex trade routes over vast distances and cultural spheres these might have begun. Factor in the chronological element with constant changes in the various geopolitical presences along these routes and colonial regions and the whole matter is compounded considerably. In my opinion the character of these triple prong, canted hilts may very well derive from the regions to the east and perhaps from the stylized zoologically oriented hilts of the tribal people there. These are so vaguely stylized that the creatures represented have, as far as I have known, never been definitively identified. They do have the canted configuration seen in these hilts, though the characteristic nock for the back of the hand in the cant of the grip/pommel I am not sure can be specifically traced to these type hilts. These profiled hilts of the triple prong; the so called 'hawks head' of Southern Arabia, Yemen and the Moroccan/Algerian sa'ifs all have this distinctive hand nock. As far as the Moroccan 'nimcha' version of these, I am personally of the opinion that these derive from the Arabian swords via trade and colonial activity there. An interesting side note is that many 18th century Spanish colonial espadas carry this hand nock feature. The arrival of this type of highly stylized zoomorphic hilt I would think may well have arrived in India via Arab trade moving westward. As often the case, direct contact is not necessarily the case, as interchange in the various posts and trade entrepots throughout these routes were the confluence of commerce and culture from numerous points and directions. It would be interesting to know of any subsequent Indian hilt designs which might have evolved from the Akbar example from Goetz' article and post 1603. By the same token, it would be interesting to consider whether the interesting triple point hilts which are attributed in Elgood to Hadhramaut with thier production in some degree to Hyderabad, might have developed there from the 'prototype' (?) of the Akbar sword. To determine that , of course we would have to discover how prevalent the production of these actually was in Hyderabad; the earliest provenanced examples, and compare those with earliest provenanced examples of these elsewhere. A great topic for research and discussion, and Lofty, Im glad you revived this thread! With your clear interest in this type of sword, I would be most interested in your thoughts with aspects discussed here so far. All best regards, Jim

29th December 2012, 01:44 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Jim, I own one of these. The blade on mine is of Indian origin from what I can tell based on my experience. A photo posted by CharlesS awhile ago shows a Yemeni man wielding one of these swords so there is alot of evidence that supports it being used by Yemenis. Not much I can add except that I am appreciative of the info said here!