Interesting Medallion, of Unknown Origin

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2012, 11:20 AM

Hi Dana,
I didn't mean to imply that this item was inappropiately posted here. What I meant was that observations or additions might be somewhat limited in view of the nature of the item here in the context of arms discussions. As I had mentioned often associated items can offer valuable clues in our research on arms, so it would seem that at times it can work conversely.

I really dont know offhand any specialists in heraldry, but note that you have found something online. I hope you will keep us posted on anything that turns up, as this remains a most interesting query.

I keep looking at the medallion and the image on the face seems almost like a skeletal figure mounted and holding something like an infant? The crowned king on the reverse is interesting and sometimes books on coins, in this case medieval probably, might show the types of crowns from various countries and kingdoms. The lettering in the surround seems to have the number 1000 along with letters which could be acrostic, often popular in these times on sword blade inscriptions..but then could be words as well.
Here more work on alphabets and the lettering style.

The figures at the top to me seem to be armored and the elements atop the helmets possibly the kind of achievement or decoration often seen on heraldic and funerary images of these. Sometimes these were plumed or actual devices such as birds or heraldic creatures in effigy were atop these helmets.

Again, an most interesting contribution here, and look forward to any findings as well as hopefully other views from readers.

All the best,
Jim

Vendric · 23rd December 2012, 11:31 AM

I think this is a 'Billy and Charlie' named after 2 enterprising 19th c. Characters who made and then discovered on the Thames foreshore pseudo mediaeval items. Note the date 1000, which would , had medals of that period been dated, have been in Roman numerals.
These fakes are now quite collectible in their own right.

Merry Christmas, Richard

dana_w · 23rd December 2012, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendric

I think this is a 'Billy and Charlie' named after 2 enterprising 19th c. Characters who made and then discovered on the Thames foreshore pseudo mediaeval items. Note the date 1000, which would , had medals of that period been dated, have been in Roman numerals.
These fakes are now quite collectible in their own right.

Merry Christmas, Richard

You are the winner Vendric (aka Richard)! A quick search of "Billy and Charlie" and a few clicks later .... Billy & Charlie 1000

fernando · 23rd December 2012, 07:43 PM

Well, i had meanhwile consulted some local medalist forum and they told me this smelled to modern stuff.
So there you are

dana_w · 23rd December 2012, 07:53 PM

At least it is an entertaining story.

The Billy and Charley Story

VANDOO · 23rd December 2012, 08:16 PM

A MOST INTERESTING HISTORY

THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CERTIAN AMOUNT OF THIS IN THE ANTIQUITIES MARKETS AS WELL AS MANY OTHERS. I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THESE TWO SCAMPS AND THEY SURELY WERE VERY SUCESSFUL AND VERY INDUSTRIOUS WITH A LARGE AND VARIED PRODUCT LINE. I USED TO LIKE TO WATCH LOVEJOY ON TV. BECAUSE HE AND HIS CREW WERE A BIT SHADY AND COVERED A LOT OF THE INTERESTING SKULLDRUGERY IN THE BUSINESS.

MODERN STUFF?? PERHAPS BILLY AND CHARLIE LIVE AGAIN.

Jim McDougall · 24th December 2012, 01:01 AM

Absolutely phenomenal!!!
The membership and readers here never cease to amaze me in the 'on call' core of knowledge and experience they hold. This information presents yet another excellent insight into the 'produced antiquities' of the Victorian era and proves this to be an antique in in own right,
Thank you Richard!! and welcome to the forum.

All best regards,
Jim

dana_w · 24th December 2012, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely phenomenal!!!
The membership and readers here never cease to amaze me in the 'on call' core of knowledge and experience they hold.

I have to agree with Jim, the breadth of knowledge available here is phenomenal.

Thanks again Richard!

dana_w · 23rd December 2012, 03:58 PM

Thanks again Jim.

After looking at the mounted skeletal figure for awhile, I am beginning to think he is holding a man (in a very awkward position). The skeleton is sitting side saddle on something that looks like a bull, but there are four sets of legs on the bulls side.

I will update the post with any additional information that I am able to find.

23rd December 2012, 11:20 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Dana, I didn't mean to imply that this item was inappropiately posted here. What I meant was that observations or additions might be somewhat limited in view of the nature of the item here in the context of arms discussions. As I had mentioned often associated items can offer valuable clues in our research on arms, so it would seem that at times it can work conversely. I really dont know offhand any specialists in heraldry, but note that you have found something online. I hope you will keep us posted on anything that turns up, as this remains a most interesting query. I keep looking at the medallion and the image on the face seems almost like a skeletal figure mounted and holding something like an infant? The crowned king on the reverse is interesting and sometimes books on coins, in this case medieval probably, might show the types of crowns from various countries and kingdoms. The lettering in the surround seems to have the number 1000 along with letters which could be acrostic, often popular in these times on sword blade inscriptions..but then could be words as well. Here more work on alphabets and the lettering style. The figures at the top to me seem to be armored and the elements atop the helmets possibly the kind of achievement or decoration often seen on heraldic and funerary images of these. Sometimes these were plumed or actual devices such as birds or heraldic creatures in effigy were atop these helmets. Again, an most interesting contribution here, and look forward to any findings as well as hopefully other views from readers. All the best, Jim

23rd December 2012, 11:31 AM	#2
Vendric Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lincolnshire, UK Posts: 4	I think this is a 'Billy and Charlie' named after 2 enterprising 19th c. Characters who made and then discovered on the Thames foreshore pseudo mediaeval items. Note the date 1000, which would , had medals of that period been dated, have been in Roman numerals. These fakes are now quite collectible in their own right. Merry Christmas, Richard

23rd December 2012, 07:43 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well, i had meanhwile consulted some local medalist forum and they told me this smelled to modern stuff. So there you are

23rd December 2012, 07:53 PM	#5
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	At least it is an entertaining story. The Billy and Charley Story

23rd December 2012, 08:16 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A MOST INTERESTING HISTORY THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CERTIAN AMOUNT OF THIS IN THE ANTIQUITIES MARKETS AS WELL AS MANY OTHERS. I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THESE TWO SCAMPS AND THEY SURELY WERE VERY SUCESSFUL AND VERY INDUSTRIOUS WITH A LARGE AND VARIED PRODUCT LINE. I USED TO LIKE TO WATCH LOVEJOY ON TV. BECAUSE HE AND HIS CREW WERE A BIT SHADY AND COVERED A LOT OF THE INTERESTING SKULLDRUGERY IN THE BUSINESS. MODERN STUFF?? PERHAPS BILLY AND CHARLIE LIVE AGAIN.

24th December 2012, 01:01 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Absolutely phenomenal!!! The membership and readers here never cease to amaze me in the 'on call' core of knowledge and experience they hold. This information presents yet another excellent insight into the 'produced antiquities' of the Victorian era and proves this to be an antique in in own right, Thank you Richard!! and welcome to the forum. All best regards, Jim

23rd December 2012, 03:58 PM	#9
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	Thanks again Jim. After looking at the mounted skeletal figure for awhile, I am beginning to think he is holding a man (in a very awkward position). The skeleton is sitting side saddle on something that looks like a bull, but there are four sets of legs on the bulls side. I will update the post with any additional information that I am able to find.