Armour?

ham · 23rd September 2005, 05:56 PM

Ahriman,

I have been researching and teaching in the field for many years (I once heard a student say, since the Franco-Prussian War.) Where arms and armour are concerned, one is well-advised not to take anything at face value, but to make informed conclusions-- published information, i.e. books, archival data, inscriptions are all excellent but must be taken in conjunction with physical examination and when possible, application. This is the only way to learn to distinguish between fanstasy and reality, lore and research, particularly with the rise of the internet, which allots credence to even the least informed and most outlandish opinions (to say nothing of overarching egotism) by virtue of their appearance in print.
A museum's geographical location is not a guarantee of accuracy, on any count whatsoever. Nationalism, nepotism and a good many other -isms can and do affect how the public is informed by such institutions.
You might acquire a copy of Robinson's Oriental Armour, it lays out a good typology and plots the evolution of various types throughout Asia. The language is accessible and not given to pointless esoteric references, and the plates and illustrations are informative.

Sincerely,

Ham

Aqtai · 24th September 2005, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Ahriman,

...A museum's geographical location is not a guarantee of accuracy, on any count whatsoever. Nationalism, nepotism and a good many other -isms can and do affect how the public is informed by such institutions...

You can say that again! I've been to various museums in Egypt, and they have the most outrageous inaccuracies. The worst for this is the Military Museum in the Citadel of Cairo, which definitely has its own ideological axe to grind. The descriptions on the items there are ridiculously inaccurate, I got the feeling that the guy making the labels was just making it up as he went along! You get things like a mannequin wearing an Ottoman mail shirt and an 18th century Iranian kulah khud style helmet described as "Ayyubid fighter 12th century".

Here are some example from the Rubens server (an excellent resource BTW) this first is a picture from the Coptic Museum in Cairo of an Iranian Separ shield and kulah khud helmet described as 11th-13th century (without specifying if this is a AD date or Higri date), also check out the description of the Roman helmet:
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/egypt/cairo...ms_and_armour/
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/egypt/cairo...ur/index1.html

fengmodao · 24th September 2005, 05:36 PM

Hello , I am a new member who comes from China !
1=The China Tibet suit of armour.
3=Light , it was effective with the fire prevention ware to make warm to the compound suit of armour in 18 centuries on the China Qing Dynasty suit of armour
4=Korea suit of armour and China are identical . The fish scale suit of armour . We think that the fish scale is the method that the efficiency is very high . Bear a lot of shocks power .

fengmodao · 26th September 2005, 01:39 PM

Is the suit of armour to paste the host of image that infantry use or cavalryman use ? The bigger and firm suit of armour still could be covered in the outward appearance of identical in China suit of armour ! We are accustomed to the protection of effective multilayer !

Aqtai · 26th September 2005, 04:10 PM

Lamellar armour (the type shown in the 2 top photos) would certainly be a lot easier to make than mail and plate armour, and it was widely used. Not only was it used in China and Tibet, but also in Iran and the Middle-East up until the 14th century AD. In the Middle East it seems to have been superseded by mail-and-plate armours in the early 15th century. AFAIK there are no complete surving Islamic lamellar armours, although fragments and individual lamellae have been found in Iraq.

Rivkin · 26th September 2005, 07:47 PM

According to Gorelik (btw I really liked his last two books), lamellar armor was produced by mongols because it's offered far better protection against arrows than mail.

Ahriman · 26th September 2005, 10:01 PM

Indeed, faaaar better... One of my friends made one out of 1mm spring steel, and was quite suprised when most arrows bounced off without denting the metal... the rest left small dents, but none have pierced. The bow was, if I'm right, 60#.
I don't really like chinese harnesses, as I'm rather a m&p-maniac idiot

, but the last looks good... even to me.

Ham: I think your students are VERY lucky... most hungarian teachers, even quite many of the university teachers, are still thinking that a full-plate harness is too heavy to move in it, that the knights were put on the horses by cranes, etc...

Aqtai: nice examples, I'm convinced...

But I was still able to use something like these greaves for fighting... and it was good... Hm, maybe I invented something new???

BTW, I've added full fingers and a knuckle plate to the "vambrace", or "elbow-demigauntlet" on the first page. Looks less eastern than ever... more like a "muslimised" german elbow gauntlet. I'll post pictures of it in a few days. Reason of upgrade: idiotic owner became overconfident as it provided good defense, especially compared to a thin leather gauntlet used for semi-full contact. He didn't really bother to defend a back-edge cut to the wrist, as he had mail there... but that cut missed with about 5cm, and opened one of his non-gloved fingers down to the bone, AND splitted his fingernail.

I won't post photos of THIS.

24th September 2005, 05:36 PM	#3
fengmodao Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: beijing Posts: 29	Hello , I am a new member who comes from China ! 1=The China Tibet suit of armour. 3=Light , it was effective with the fire prevention ware to make warm to the compound suit of armour in 18 centuries on the China Qing Dynasty suit of armour 4=Korea suit of armour and China are identical . The fish scale suit of armour . We think that the fish scale is the method that the efficiency is very high . Bear a lot of shocks power . Attached Images

23rd September 2005, 05:56 PM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Ahriman, I have been researching and teaching in the field for many years (I once heard a student say, since the Franco-Prussian War.) Where arms and armour are concerned, one is well-advised not to take anything at face value, but to make informed conclusions-- published information, i.e. books, archival data, inscriptions are all excellent but must be taken in conjunction with physical examination and when possible, application. This is the only way to learn to distinguish between fanstasy and reality, lore and research, particularly with the rise of the internet, which allots credence to even the least informed and most outlandish opinions (to say nothing of overarching egotism) by virtue of their appearance in print. A museum's geographical location is not a guarantee of accuracy, on any count whatsoever. Nationalism, nepotism and a good many other -isms can and do affect how the public is informed by such institutions. You might acquire a copy of Robinson's Oriental Armour, it lays out a good typology and plots the evolution of various types throughout Asia. The language is accessible and not given to pointless esoteric references, and the plates and illustrations are informative. Sincerely, Ham

26th September 2005, 01:39 PM	#4
fengmodao Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: beijing Posts: 29	Is the suit of armour to paste the host of image that infantry use or cavalryman use ? The bigger and firm suit of armour still could be covered in the outward appearance of identical in China suit of armour ! We are accustomed to the protection of effective multilayer !

26th September 2005, 04:10 PM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Lamellar armour (the type shown in the 2 top photos) would certainly be a lot easier to make than mail and plate armour, and it was widely used. Not only was it used in China and Tibet, but also in Iran and the Middle-East up until the 14th century AD. In the Middle East it seems to have been superseded by mail-and-plate armours in the early 15th century. AFAIK there are no complete surving Islamic lamellar armours, although fragments and individual lamellae have been found in Iraq.

26th September 2005, 07:47 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	According to Gorelik (btw I really liked his last two books), lamellar armor was produced by mongols because it's offered far better protection against arrows than mail.

26th September 2005, 10:01 PM	#7
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Indeed, faaaar better... One of my friends made one out of 1mm spring steel, and was quite suprised when most arrows bounced off without denting the metal... the rest left small dents, but none have pierced. The bow was, if I'm right, 60#. I don't really like chinese harnesses, as I'm rather a m&p-maniac idiot , but the last looks good... even to me. Ham: I think your students are VERY lucky... most hungarian teachers, even quite many of the university teachers, are still thinking that a full-plate harness is too heavy to move in it, that the knights were put on the horses by cranes, etc... Aqtai: nice examples, I'm convinced... But I was still able to use something like these greaves for fighting... and it was good... Hm, maybe I invented something new??? BTW, I've added full fingers and a knuckle plate to the "vambrace", or "elbow-demigauntlet" on the first page. Looks less eastern than ever... more like a "muslimised" german elbow gauntlet. I'll post pictures of it in a few days. Reason of upgrade: idiotic owner became overconfident as it provided good defense, especially compared to a thin leather gauntlet used for semi-full contact. He didn't really bother to defend a back-edge cut to the wrist, as he had mail there... but that cut missed with about 5cm, and opened one of his non-gloved fingers down to the bone, AND splitted his fingernail. I won't post photos of THIS.