African Three-Dagger sets

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi all,
As regards the date of 1920, my friend from whom I bought the daggers is now 70 years old, and has lived with these daggers (and other items) for his whole life. His father fought in the WW1 Gallipoli campaign, stayed on in the area for some years before returning home to New Zealand. (Incidentally, also served in WW2, collecting weapons from SE Asia, some of which I have and will post photos of). If he said that he acquired them in 1920, then I believe him. As regards patination, if held in a private collection for 92 years, then surely it is logical that there would be no wear and tear on them?
Jim, thank you for your support.
Best to all,
Brian

You bet Brian! I think the 'tourist' syndrome is a bit cavalierly thrown around with too many ethnographic weapons, and it sounds like your provenance was sound. I had seen examples very much like yours in an extremely comprehensive collection of Mahdist items which was assembled with also well provenanced items. I recall some discussions years ago claiming that crocodile hide items were also 'tourist' pieces to which I disagreed, again citing examples from these and others I had seen with good provenance.

All the best,
Jim

PS, just found this in notes,
Some of the venerable sages of arms and armour collecting had a remarkable dignity and gentlemanly grace which has noticeably diminished in todays demeanor. Claude Blair had remarked on Sir Guy Laking, "...I was told that it was said of Laking that he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

[Lew]

Just to compare what I meant about patina. Below a several examples dating from the 1890s-1940s Top photo lower dagger is circa 1890-1898 from Dafur the other one is circa 1920-30s. The next one down has an Arabic inscription on the reverse side Omdurman 1898. The one with the medium brown hilt and X's on the blade is circa 1940-45. The long bladed with the finely detailed engraved blade is circa 1900-20. All were tribally used and developed a smooth rich patina.

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE A FEW PICTURES OF EXAMPLES OF AFRICAN 3 WEAPON SETS. THE MOST COMMON ARE THE ONES WITH 3 DAGGERS. THOSE WITH SWORD AND 2 DAGGERS OR MACE AND TWO DAGGERS ARE MORE RARE. OVER THE YEARS I HAVE SEEN MORE EXAMPLES OF THESE DAGGER SETS IN POOR SHAPE THAN IN GOOD SHAPE BUT AS MENTIONED IF COLLECTED IN GOOD SHAPE EARLY AND KEPT AND MAINTAINED WELL IN A COLLECTION THEY CAN LOOK AS GOOD AS NEW. LOOK FOR DRYED OUT OR BLEACHED OUT SKIN AS WELL AS NOTE THE SMELL IF THE SKIN OR WOOD SMELLS FRESH OR STINKY BEWARE. BUT OF COURSE IT COULD BE OIL OR WAX PRESERVITIVE AND SOME ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS CAN BE STINKY EVEN MANY YEARS LATER.
ONE MACE HAS A HEAD THAT LOOKS LIKE A POTTERY GERNADE AND IS SAID TO BE MAMALUKE AND IS 21 IN LONG.
THE 3 DAGGERS SAID TO BE 19 CENTURY SUDANESE,18.5IN. LONG, NILE CROC.
ALL ARE SUPOSSED TO BE FROM MAHADIST PERIOD.

THE HORNS ON YOUR EXAMPLE ARE LIKELY FROM THE TOMPSONS GAZELLE WHICH IS ABOUT THE RIGHT SIZE AND QUITE COMMON. THE SKIN ON THAT SCABBARD IS CROCODILE AND YOUR OTHER SET IS COVERED IN MONITIOR LIZZARD SKIN.

[Iliad]

Vandoo,
Thank you so much for the great photos! Absolutely marvellous!
Best,
Brian

[Lew]

Vandoo the set with the cows head mace that mace is Indo Persian even though it is old. I just find these sets to be ceremonial rather than for combat the blades are very thin with no discernible edge. You often see Kaskara with this type on thuluth writing on the blade and they have dull edges also. There were a lot of British soldiers in the Sudan at the turn of the 19th-20th century. I just think some savvy locals found ways of supplying them with battle field keepsakes. It's amazing how many of these sets I have seen over the years.

Lew

[ariel]

Nothing in relation to the presented weapons. Everybody has personal tastes and preferences. I have mine.
Personally, I cringe when I see such scabbards, especially kaskaras with the scabbards made from a whole croc. Will never buy a dagger with a deer foot for a handle. Even worse, I shudder when I see powder flasks made out of dried camel or other mammal ( ) scrotum. Ascribe it to male solidarity or to Ziggy Freud.
NB: I am a dedicated carnivorous. But those examples revolt me. Never discussed it with a psychologist. Never had a psychologist. This is just my private quirk, and I am happy to live with it.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by ariel

Never had a psychologist.

This explains quite alot...

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Lew

Vandoo the set with the cows head mace that mace is Indo Persian even though it is old. I just find these sets to be ceremonial rather than for combat the blades are very thin with no discernible edge. You often see Kaskara with this type on thuluth writing on the blade and they have dull edges also. There were a lot of British soldiers in the Sudan at the turn of the 19th-20th century. I just think some savvy locals found ways of supplying them with battle field keepsakes. It's amazing how many of these sets I have seen over the years.

Lew

What Lew said. There are a lot of thin bladed kaskara and daggers with no edge. Almost always with thuluth - that is not to say all thuluth items are perhaps not intended for use. But I would be very hard pressed to imagine that some these examples were not made for those who travel, although that is not to say all were. We have seen in the past some very odd kaskara that seem to have originated from Egypt, this may be the case with some of these items as well.

The post card in this thread showing one of these sets, looks to be a staged scene. A popular practice I believe at the time, from the range of items scattered around I have to wonder if the photographer supplied the "props" or if the men in the photo brought their own... The former possibility would unfortunately cast some doubt on using this photo as a solid reference for the tribal use of these dagger sets.

On the other hand, as badges of office and command these would make sense. Did you have any luck digging up a reference on that David? I'm intrigued - it's been a while since we had a good discussion on here about thuluth stuff!

[Gavin Nugent]

It is nice to see this thread take a turn for the better, some interesting aspects have been shown.

Lew, your collection, the images are present but not identified for readers...with all being in a cleaned state and patina as such being all pretty much the same, what image relates to what time period?

With regards to non sharpened weapons, ceremonial context could be considered... but as for a sword not being effective because it is not sharpened, go grab a 3mm thick x 40mm wide piece of flat bar a metre long and give your self a gentle tap on the head and you'll see how soft the human body really it... now put some for in to it and see what happens to your head....with this region in particular where armour was rarely seen even a ceremonial sword could become offensive if required.
Very fine provenanced examples I have had with very fine trade blades of a combat nature, whilst having edges, they were never really sharp at all...which leads me to ask to what degree were they ever sharpened?

As for these dagger, tourist, ceremonial or real, if swiped with force across the skin with these curved points, you better be looking for a doctor because humans are soft.

Gav