A folding butt carbine

[fernando]

Thanks for the input, Dana
Yes it is mine; some swap i made last Friday, with some extra from my side
Mind you, patilla (or patilha in portuguese) refers to the hammer toe as its shape resembles human hair sideburns.
Yes, the battery appears to have a replaceable face.
I didn't yet decide to dismount the lock foor possible interior marks.
No the the butt style is not Catalan but Brescian. The catalan butt looks more boot/foot like.
No there are not pins fixing the barrel to the stock, only bands. Maybe you are noticing some wood imperfections.
The is or was no trigger guard; both side and counter plate pictures will be posted soon.
Yes the screw that holds the tang is in the 'inverted' position, a method also used in early Portuguese examples.
I agree that the decoration doesn't look Moorish at all. On the other hand, it is known that the patilla (Miquelet) lock was brought to Italy during Spanish domination ... if i put it correctly.

.

[dana_w]

Thanks for the additional photos fernando. I am looking forward to learning more about your new prize.

I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese. What little I know,(or think I know) comes from my father F.E. Williams (aka Jack Williams), Keith Neal and Dr. Lavin. On page 166 of Lavin's book, he says “Here 'pie' is used by Espinar in the same sense as 'patilla' in his chapter on the gunlock. The difference between the two is slight; pie normally refers to the human foot, while pata, or its diminutive, patilla, is the foot of the animal or object.”

On Page 190 Lavin talks about the Italian influence on the Castilian style. I am sure you are right about the more fish tail like Berescian stock now that I have looked at this chapter again. I do have a matchlock carbine supposedly made in Ripoll that has a stock much like the one you show here. Don't some early Catalan style butts have a much less pronounced “toe”?

The photos fooled me about the pins. I have some barrels with only pins, some with pins and barrel bands and some with only barrel bands. I hear that barrel bands only means it was made later.

That is one fascinating weapon you have there. I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

...I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.

No marks ... but i like it though.


.

[dana_w]

Wow, check out the end of that spring. Neat!

[fernando]

I sincerly hope that the engravings on mine, being visibly more pronounced, are a more elaborated craft method and an added value on these things.
Otherwise i feel a bit frustrated, as i have paid much more than the one in the auction .

.

[Fernando K]

Hello:

The working method applied to the plates is not recorded, but the "tooled". Fernando would be interesting to tell us what material they are made (? Silver, nickel, iron?)

The weapon of the post 10, a blunderbuss travel has on his shield (escutcheon) a phrase in Italian, I fail to decipher: "chi non nona Legge P. ....."

The weapon of the post 13 has an inscription on the barrel LAZZAPINA. It was amended by adding a leg to the P to become R, LAZZARINO (Lazzarino Comionazo why?)

In post 14, Photo of the key, I would like to know is that little screw on the inner side of the upper jaw. Is it to hold the screw mason?

[Miqueleter]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello:



In post 14, Photo of the key, I would like to know is that little screw on the inner side of the upper jaw. Is it to hold the screw mason?

Good eye, Fernando K, I noticed that top jaw screw (setscrew?) on Fernando's scavezzo as well as the ones in Malta. I have never seen that before on the classic patillas. Interesting as well is the fact the scavezzos seem to be fitted with classic patilla locks on what is basically an Italian firearm. Brescian, IMHO. But then, until this thread, I never really paid any attention to scavezzos. I would see them listed quite often in Czerny's auctions. Perhaps Fernando will verify that the screw is indeed a setscrew.

[fernando]

Hola Fernando.

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello:
The working method applied to the plates is not recorded, but the "tooled". Fernando would be interesting to tell us what material they are made (? Silver, nickel, iron?)...

You mean not engraved but tooled; what would be the spanish term for tooled?
The material is iron.

Originally Posted by Fernando K

The weapon of the post 10, a blunderbuss travel has on his shield (escutcheon) a phrase in Italian, I fail to decipher: "chi non nona Legge P. ....." ...

Maybe an Italian could decipher it ... although the auction house is Italin and they just called it 'inscription'. I guess it is one this popular phrases, like you also find in Spanish navajas. This one sounds like a motto, like "who doesn't have law ..."

Originally Posted by Fernando K

The weapon of the post 13 has an inscription on the barrel LAZZAPINA. It was amended by adding a leg to the P to become R, LAZZARINO (Lazzarino Comionazo why?)

I think the original intention was to inscribe the word LAZZARINA, to give prestige to the weapon with such famous name. This is a common habit. The Cominazo family was Brescian, where apparently this 'Scavezzo' was made.

Originally Posted by Fernando K

In post 14, Photo of the key, I would like to know is that little screw on the inner side of the upper jaw. Is it to hold the screw mason?

Yes, the "set screw", as i have now leaerned the term in english.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by fernando

I sincerly hope that the engravings on mine, being visibly more pronounced, are a more elaborated craft method and an added value on these things.
Otherwise i feel a bit frustrated, as i have paid much more than the one in the auction .

.

Keep in mind that they had to add another 20% fee and VAT!

[broadaxe]

I had been recently in Malta, where I visited the famous Palace Armoury - a true must for every collector and researcher of arms & armor. there are some very similar guns on display, they call them "Scavezzo". According the text these were used by coach drivers and poachers. Sorry for the bad photos, the result of taking hundreds under unfriendly light conditions, and no flash.

[fernando]

Let's see, Dana:

I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. That one is an essential I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese I am lucky on that one . What little I know,(or think I know) comes from my father F.E. Williams (aka Jack Williams), Keith Neal and Dr. Lavin. This clavina was acquired in one of Keith Neal best friends On page 166 of Lavin's book, he says “Here 'pie' is used by Espinar in the same sense as 'patilla' in his chapter on the gunlock. The difference between the two is slight; pie normally refers to the human foot, while pata, or its diminutive, patilla, is the foot of the animal or object.” No, not that. "Pie" means "foot" and "patilla" refers to the shape of the foot. Patilla (or patilha in portuguese) is a word of different origin and is not the diminutive of pata (hoof)On Page 190 Lavin talks about the Italian influence on the Castilian style. I am sure you are right about the more fish tail like Berescian stock now that I have looked at this chapter again. I do have a matchlock carbine supposedly made in Ripoll that has a stock much like the one you show here. Don't some early Catalan style butts have a much less pronounced “toe”? Could be; i just showed the only one i have.The photos fooled me about the pins. I have some barrels with only pins, some with pins and barrel bands and some with only barrel bands. I hear that barrel bands only means it was made later. Yes, that would be true ... not counting with ingenious smiths that presented advanced technologies much before general appearance. I had the previlege to see some such examples the last weekend, in a luxury collection.That is one fascinating weapon you have there. I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.
I took it to the workshop this morning to fix a loose screw in the folding mechanism. The smith dismounted the lock just for fun. It has no marks except for a large X. It has a rather well developed mechanism. Next week i will post pictures of it.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

I had been recently in Malta, where I visited the famous Palace Armoury - a true must for every collector and researcher of arms & armor. there are some very similar guns on display, they call them "Scavezzo". According the text these were used by coach drivers and poachers. Sorry for the bad photos, the result of taking hundreds under unfriendly light conditions, and no flash.

Oh yes, Malta
I haven't yet visited that museum because low cost companies don't fly to such destination.

Thanks for posting images of something of the sort; it is always rather comforting to see a piece similar to ours.
It all starts to make sense; i was told this model is called over here a stage coach 'clavina' (a term/style that preceded the 'modern' carabina).
On the other hand, the meaning of 'Scavezzo', besides the basic attribution of the term (broken, from to break or to brake up) is the idiomatic name to connotate these guns as prohibited while insidious, with a stock hinged in two parts, to possibilitate for the butt to join the forearm, to easily conceal it.

1. agg. Scavezzato, cioè rotto, spezzato. In partic., arma s., fucile s., o, come sost., scavezzo, arma da fuoco portatile, proibita in quanto arma insidiosa, con la cassa in due pezzi incernierati in modo da poter ripiegare il calcio sul fusto per meglio nasconderla.

Well, i will assume that my fine example would have belonged in the stage coah of wealthy traveler, and not in the pocket of a poacher's cloak

Thanks again for your input, Broadaxe

[fernando]

Pictures of counter plate and trigger plate.


.

[dana_w]

fernando, someone who is reading this forum, but who is not a member, thought you would enjoy seeing these Folding Flintlock Guns that were sold at auction in November.

http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot....=45749&asta=38
http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot....=45764&asta=38
http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot....=45748&asta=38

[fernando]

Nice ... very nice.
Let's upload the images, so that we may keep them in our archives, for permanenmt access ... a good practice in our forum.
Here is the first one:

.

[fernando]

second one:


-