Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[SwedeGreen]

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

FYI Johnny, Fort Antiques and Ibrahiim are one and the same.

[Richard G]

Johhny,

Thank you for the reply. I wonder if any other of our forumites have seen hilts like these, with a window opening on to the blade?

I also notice the ridges that extend down either side or the sheath element of the hilt look as if they could be welded on. Is this the case?

My guess is that the blades are the oldest parts of these swords and the hilts fitted to them sometime not too long ago, post WWII?

Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

Salaams Johnny, As pointed out by Khanjar 1 ...I am indeed fortantiques.net and in large part the website is my own take on Omani Weapons... especially Swords and Khanjars. The huge thread on Kattara for comments http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 is a mega discussion on the broad subject of Omani fighting swords and dancing swords. In it there are references and photos of a lot of styles including the Saudia/Yemeni variant which is the central topic on this thread. I encourage anyone studying the subject to at least scan through that thread as it is full of facts and interesting twists.

Notwithstanding how the international community calls the swords the correct name for any straight sword in Oman is Sayf (or Saif) whilst curved swords are called Kattara. Kattara (not an Arabic word) is a relatively modern term perhaps instigated around 1744 at the inception of the Al Bussaidi Dynasty. It also fits the time-frame for the cross pollination of the long Omani hilt from/of the Omani dancing sword...

The Straight long flexible two edged razor sharp (new style) Omani Sayf not to be confused with the Omani Battle Sayf or Sayf Yamaani which goes back in style to the battles after 751 AD to rid Oman of the Abassiids(from Iraq) garrisoned here in Buraimi and other Omani centres to persecute Omanis who had formed a breakaway Ibaathi Muslim Sect. I will put up photographs to illustrate each sword and briefly its history later.

On top of these types there are some other curved Kattara including the Shamshir (no one calls them shamshiirs ~ they call them kattara~ because they are curved) Then there are the heavy backbladed slave trader swords..mighty things with the Omani long hilt from the dancing sword style...they are curved and so they are called Kattara. Occasionally there is a short ships weapon really simply an adaption of the Yemeni adaption of the Zanzibari Nimcha though here one has to be careful as there are lots of types as seen at Butin. The very aristocratic gold inlaid Zanzibari style was certainly an Omani style for Political heads of state, VIPs and merchants... after all Oman ejected the Portuguese from Muscat in 1650 and pursued them down the coast and did the same to them in Zanzibar... Oman owned Zanzibar for many years.

What tends to get confusing is that the generic term used for all swords is Sayf !!

It is important to grasp the vital difference between the Omani Battle Sword and the more recent dancing sword which pays homage to the old sword and the ancestors that wielded it...which has confused several learned visitors over the last 3 centuries tricking them into believing that the razor sharp flexible dancing sayf was a weapon when in fact it never saw a battle because it is and never has been a weapon..Its a dancing sword only; however, it looks battle worthy and if someone had mind to swipe with it; it would certainly work ! It could take off an arm. However it was and is only for dancing (plus it has a mock fight dance contest) and causes extreme mirth when you ask local people about its use as a fighting weapon...

Omani Battle Sword (sayf Yamaani) circa 751 ad> Dancing Sayf.circa 1744 ad

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for this excellent and detailed coverage which reiterates the intricacies of these terms as used in Arabia, and Oman in particular on this group of sometimes closely associated swords.

What I like the most, as a researcher on historic edged weapons for many years myself, is that you have yourself promoted advancing knowledge and adding informative material on these weapon forms. I think that is what makes this forum great is how these topics get discussed in detail, and we can all evaluate and assess the material into the perspective we need to effectively gain better understanding of development and terminology on these forms.

I had forgotten previous discussions with regard to the sayf Yemeni, which it appears these swords posted by Johnny would be classified if I understand correctly. It is my impression these are versions of the Omani kattara (sayf)
as described as the cylindrically hilted, guardless broadswords for higher echelon and prominant merchants in Oman and of course Zanzibar. It is interesting that these Yemeni versions carry similar hilts, with the peaked cylinder or domed pommel resembling the Ibaathi swords of Oman's interior and from quite early date in a traditional form hilts.

I have long believed personally that the profound presence of Omani merchants and traders beyond Zanzibar into Africas interior may have provided influence to similarly hilted swords such as the seme of Kenya's Maasai and the guardless sabres of the Manding in Mali. Naturally these may have developed through diffusion and influence rather than direct contact with the Omanis themselves.

Returning to the forms of 'kattara', both straight broadsword and the curved forms, it is interesting to note the use of the term for the curved swords of this type hilt as well. I am still unclear of the use of this term for the short sabres which often fall into the 'nimcha' heading, often seen in maritime circumstances. The nimcha term is often incorrectly applied, particularly in the Maghreb, where the sabres known by that term and typically mounted with trade or foreign blades, many long and straight, are called nimcha.

The forms of 'nimcha' referred to in Butin as from Zanzibar, typically with a characteristic ring projecting from the crossguard, seem to have been prevalent in Yemen and probably in other Omani ports of call. These I have always seen termed 'nimcha' and but not kattara, but like many terms, the collectors venue has often dictated terms colloquially accepted, whether correct or not.

My earlier comments on these four Yemeni sayfs were presuming from photos that these blades were the typically more modern Omani produced thin blades for the dancing type swords. As has been noted, these appear to be heavier combat worthy trade blades and probably of earlier vintage, but the mounts, though clearly old and scabbards broken, are probably well into 20th century.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, the dance versions of swords, like many forms of court and dress swords, can certainly become a formidable weapon which can be used in occasion to some degree, though not having capacity of full combat use.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for this excellent and detailed coverage which reiterates the intricacies of these terms as used in Arabia, and Oman in particular on this group of sometimes closely associated swords.

What I like the most, as a researcher on historic edged weapons for many years myself, is that you have yourself promoted advancing knowledge and adding informative material on these weapon forms. I think that is what makes this forum great is how these topics get discussed in detail, and we can all evaluate and assess the material into the perspective we need to effectively gain better understanding of development and terminology on these forms.

I had forgotten previous discussions with regard to the sayf Yemeni, which it appears these swords posted by Johnny would be classified if I understand correctly. It is my impression these are versions of the Omani kattara (sayf)
as described as the cylindrically hilted, guardless broadswords for higher echelon and prominant merchants in Oman and of course Zanzibar. It is interesting that these Yemeni versions carry similar hilts, with the peaked cylinder or domed pommel resembling the Ibaathi swords of Oman's interior and from quite early date in a traditional form hilts.

I have long believed personally that the profound presence of Omani merchants and traders beyond Zanzibar into Africas interior may have provided influence to similarly hilted swords such as the seme of Kenya's Maasai and the guardless sabres of the Manding in Mali. Naturally these may have developed through diffusion and influence rather than direct contact with the Omanis themselves.

Returning to the forms of 'kattara', both straight broadsword and the curved forms, it is interesting to note the use of the term for the curved swords of this type hilt as well. I am still unclear of the use of this term for the short sabres which often fall into the 'nimcha' heading, often seen in maritime circumstances. The nimcha term is often incorrectly applied, particularly in the Maghreb, where the sabres known by that term and typically mounted with trade or foreign blades, many long and straight, are called nimcha.

The forms of 'nimcha' referred to in Butin as from Zanzibar, typically with a characteristic ring projecting from the crossguard, seem to have been prevalent in Yemen and probably in other Omani ports of call. These I have always seen termed 'nimcha' and but not kattara, but like many terms, the collectors venue has often dictated terms colloquially accepted, whether correct or not.

My earlier comments on these four Yemeni sayfs were presuming from photos that these blades were the typically more modern Omani produced thin blades for the dancing type swords. As has been noted, these appear to be heavier combat worthy trade blades and probably of earlier vintage, but the mounts, though clearly old and scabbards broken, are probably well into 20th century.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, the dance versions of swords, like many forms of court and dress swords, can certainly become a formidable weapon which can be used in occasion to some degree.

Salaams Jim, Fortunately we have your guiding light and the facilities at your disposal (I refer of course to your twenty ton Ethno Arms and Armour mobile library on route 66 !!) Your broad viewpoint is always appreciated and your in depth knowledge of all these systems is the backbone of this forum.

Your last point if I may ~ It now transpires that the early visitors probably got mixed up rather than mistaken about these weapons. Some commented as I have done that these dancing swords (which they thought were war swords) were indeed fighting weapons... that could take off an arm or leg... The fact that they were viewed in combat mode ie probably in mock battle form as one of the Funoon pageants where 2 opponents fight it out...using dancing sword and Terrs shield~the winner is the fighter that can touch the opponents other thumb with his sword tip ! ( dodgey business if you ask me as the swords are sharp)... see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 for a description of Funoon which to western way of thinking is essentially pantomime or the passing down of enacted material through play-lets , dance music and poetry... instead of in written form. (It is in fact what makes the proof of the old sword sacrosanct.) But I speak not of the old sword... Tis the young one I cry halt !! An imposter by any other name yet in this case not quite...It honours the ancestors and the old Sayf Yamani....That is why it is razor sharp... Its the least the modern dance exponent can do... after all dancing isn't exactly dangerous... though with a razor sharp blade it certainly is !! As all exponents of martial arts know... You don't play fight with live blades. You do here! A dancing blade must be sharp... Omanis would rather swim with the sharks than turn out with a blunt dancing sword... never! The fact that the shield also passed over to the dancing sword further confused the visitors..I mean why have a shield if you aren't going to fight... Purely honorary purely traditional; not for fighting.

Whilst all this was going on what was the system that did away with bladed weapons... Gunpowder. Not only did we see the demise (though oft iconised) of swords but the main weapon The Spear all but vanished .. Quite simply it wasn't something easily made an Icon from... being very cumbersome... whereas swords and daggers ... no problem.

I placed an old Omani Battle Sword into the Tareq Rajeb in Quwait with a scabbard which had brass furniture. I believe most scabbards got re made... not difficult. What I think was difficult was the manufacture of the blade..which on inspection appear to be watered steel. I point toward either Hadramaut or Nizwa. Common sense would dictate that Nizwa is the answer though I hesitate without proof as yet.

Some Omani Swords below with a few interlopers thrown in ...Forumites please see if you can spot which is which ?

Yours is an interesting take on the influence of African styles on the "dancer" which I suspect came in with the Bussaidi dynasty from about 1744~ and diffused onto the slaver sword (or perhaps logically vica versa?) I simply don't have the evidence to support that yet but it is plausible.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[SwedeGreen]

Khanjar 1: Thank you for making the connection for me of Ibrahiim al Balooshi and Fort Antiques. Haha. That clears a few things up.

Richard G: Yes the hilts are welded but the welds appear to be forge welds which could have been hammered out during any era. Just a guess but could the purpose of the hilt "windows" be to easily see if the sayf is seated in the sheath?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi & Jim: Your knowledge of these is wonderful to read. Thank you. From what I am gathering do you think that I would be correct in describing these swords thus?

Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs
Made between 751 & 1744
Sheaths: Probably early 20th century


Ibrahiim al Balooshi I have sent you an inquiry on your Fort Antiques website not knowing it was you.

Respectfully
Johnny

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Khanjar 1: Thank you for making the connection for me of Ibrahiim al Balooshi and Fort Antiques. Haha. That clears a few things up.

Richard G: Yes the hilts are welded but the welds appear to be forge welds which could have been hammered out during any era. Just a guess but could the purpose of the hilt "windows" be to easily see if the sayf is seated in the sheath?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi & Jim: Your knowledge of these is wonderful to read. Thank you. From what I am gathering do you think that I would be correct in describing these swords thus?

Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs
Made between 751 & 1744
Sheaths: Probably early 20th century


Ibrahiim al Balooshi I have sent you an inquiry on your Fort Antiques website not knowing it was you.

Respectfully
Johnny

Salaams SwedeGreen No. The 4 Saudia Yemeni swords are newish ~ perhaps about 50 years old but nothing to do with Omani swords or the Omani sword dates of 751 or 1744. The scabbards are worn but probably about the same vintage(50 years?),... Solar and sand degradation on leather is very punishing.
(I replied to your inquiry the other day.)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]