Oldest dated flyssa - appeal to EU/Spanish forumites

Emanuel · 4th October 2012, 09:59 AM

Hi Jim!

Been a while, and back in India for round 2.
Haven't gotten around to any of that inventory work I'm afraid. I am going to add some detail shots of this flyssa however. Unfortunately the Real Armeria only saw it fit to send me one picture, of one side only. No idea of what the spine or the other side looks like. Oh well...

All the best and drive safe!
Emanuel

Emanuel · 4th October 2012, 10:01 AM

The blade...

Emanuel · 4th October 2012, 10:03 AM

And the scabbard...

Notice the decoration surrounding the belt loop, doesn't it look a lot like fabric? It's like the scabbard maker chose to mimic the look of woven garments into the scabbard.

Jim McDougall · 5th October 2012, 12:45 AM

Fantastic Emanuel!!!! and its wonderful having you back here again. I think we have come a long way on the flyssa mysteries, but as you know, a long way to go. We have some great projects going on a number of the weapons forms, and its good to have you back with your specialty in these.
India!!!?? How long will you be there?

All the very best,
Jim

Wodimi · 7th October 2012, 12:29 AM

Hi Emanuel,

I just found your interesting thread about the Flyssa, it seems you have much knowledge in this field.
Have you, or any other member ever found or seen a Flyssa with such a wide blade? Length is 79 cm and at the widest point on the blade short over 5 cm. It is also not so pointed, as a Flyssa normal is, but real heavy. Could it be that it was used for a special function? I have a theory, but would like to hear first if somebody would know something.

Thanks
Wolf

Emanuel · 8th October 2012, 05:57 AM

Hello Wolf,

You have a very nice flyssa! I am amazed by the delicacy of the handle decoration. Those scrolls are very fine.
I have a flyssa in my collection with a very deep-bellied blade like yours, but closer to 100cm long. Unfortunately it lost the brass covering on the handle. I am not at home but as I recall it does reach about 5cm at its widest (second to last from the bottom in the attached pic).

Your example, and a number of such mid-sized flyssas that have been posted on the forum over the years, seem to be better suited to slashing. The narrower blades were possibly used in estoc by cavalry. There is no concensus on their manner or use, and the only source on the topic, "Les Sabres Kabyles" by Camille Lacoste Dujardin, related the words of a French general that had seen them used only by infantry, very often in ambush situations. Supposedly the recurved edge was particularly well suited to decapitations. This should be taken with a grain of salt I think. I don't believe in very specialized weaponry, not on the scale of use seen of flyssa. Ultimately flyssas were likely used much like straight sabre patterns, likely by cavalry, but not excluding infantry.

Another possibility regarding the narrow-wide difference may be due to sharpening. Perhaps newly forged flyssas actually had a very deep and wide belly, and were subsequently narrowed after much sharpening. A similar result is often seen on old Indian tulwars.

Regardless, these are indeed quite heavy blades, with a forward balance. My fencing knowledge is too limited to imagine the fighting style that used them.

What are your thoughts on this?

Incidentally, please see the Big Flyssa Thread for links to the old discussions on the subject. It does need some updating.

Regards,
Emanuel

Wodimi · 10th October 2012, 10:38 PM

Hi Emanuel,

thanks for your answer in the forum.
Unfortunately I also don't know how this weapons are once used. Once I read in a museum file used from foot soldiers and like a stabbing weapon. That makes sense to me, because of the mostly very long pointed tip.
I also don't know if the Kabyle once practiced beheading, but if so, this sword would be perfect for such a purpose. The length, the heavy weight and extreme stong blade, sharp on one side and up to 1 cm on the neck, all this points could speak for a beheading sword. Sure for close combat it would also work, but is with only 79 cm not so perfect. It could be also the reason, why you will not find so much of it.
Okay....all that only thoughts.....
Below a picture which show again the differences between a normal, a long and this heavy example.

Best wishes
Wolf

4th October 2012, 10:01 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	The blade... Attached Images

4th October 2012, 10:03 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	And the scabbard... Notice the decoration surrounding the belt loop, doesn't it look a lot like fabric? It's like the scabbard maker chose to mimic the look of woven garments into the scabbard. Attached Images

7th October 2012, 12:29 AM	#5
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Hi Emanuel, I just found your interesting thread about the Flyssa, it seems you have much knowledge in this field. Have you, or any other member ever found or seen a Flyssa with such a wide blade? Length is 79 cm and at the widest point on the blade short over 5 cm. It is also not so pointed, as a Flyssa normal is, but real heavy. Could it be that it was used for a special function? I have a theory, but would like to hear first if somebody would know something. Thanks Wolf Attached Images

8th October 2012, 05:57 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Wolf, You have a very nice flyssa! I am amazed by the delicacy of the handle decoration. Those scrolls are very fine. I have a flyssa in my collection with a very deep-bellied blade like yours, but closer to 100cm long. Unfortunately it lost the brass covering on the handle. I am not at home but as I recall it does reach about 5cm at its widest (second to last from the bottom in the attached pic). Your example, and a number of such mid-sized flyssas that have been posted on the forum over the years, seem to be better suited to slashing. The narrower blades were possibly used in estoc by cavalry. There is no concensus on their manner or use, and the only source on the topic, "Les Sabres Kabyles" by Camille Lacoste Dujardin, related the words of a French general that had seen them used only by infantry, very often in ambush situations. Supposedly the recurved edge was particularly well suited to decapitations. This should be taken with a grain of salt I think. I don't believe in very specialized weaponry, not on the scale of use seen of flyssa. Ultimately flyssas were likely used much like straight sabre patterns, likely by cavalry, but not excluding infantry. Another possibility regarding the narrow-wide difference may be due to sharpening. Perhaps newly forged flyssas actually had a very deep and wide belly, and were subsequently narrowed after much sharpening. A similar result is often seen on old Indian tulwars. Regardless, these are indeed quite heavy blades, with a forward balance. My fencing knowledge is too limited to imagine the fighting style that used them. What are your thoughts on this? Incidentally, please see the Big Flyssa Thread for links to the old discussions on the subject. It does need some updating. Regards, Emanuel Attached Images

10th October 2012, 10:38 PM	#7
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Hi Emanuel, thanks for your answer in the forum. Unfortunately I also don't know how this weapons are once used. Once I read in a museum file used from foot soldiers and like a stabbing weapon. That makes sense to me, because of the mostly very long pointed tip. I also don't know if the Kabyle once practiced beheading, but if so, this sword would be perfect for such a purpose. The length, the heavy weight and extreme stong blade, sharp on one side and up to 1 cm on the neck, all this points could speak for a beheading sword. Sure for close combat it would also work, but is with only 79 cm not so perfect. It could be also the reason, why you will not find so much of it. Okay....all that only thoughts..... Below a picture which show again the differences between a normal, a long and this heavy example. Best wishes Wolf Attached Images

4th October 2012, 09:59 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim! Been a while, and back in India for round 2. Haven't gotten around to any of that inventory work I'm afraid. I am going to add some detail shots of this flyssa however. Unfortunately the Real Armeria only saw it fit to send me one picture, of one side only. No idea of what the spine or the other side looks like. Oh well... All the best and drive safe! Emanuel

5th October 2012, 12:45 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Fantastic Emanuel!!!! and its wonderful having you back here again. I think we have come a long way on the flyssa mysteries, but as you know, a long way to go. We have some great projects going on a number of the weapons forms, and its good to have you back with your specialty in these. India!!!?? How long will you be there? All the very best, Jim