Armour?

Ahriman · 15th September 2005, 08:18 AM

I was told on numerous events that never say "never", or "unquestionably".

And BTW, it's listed as vambrace in a TURKISH museum... in Ankara.
I have made something like the pic I posted, and it was comfortable for fighting with sabers, and it restricted only a bit movement, less than an italian mitten. Of course, it wouldn't be fixed to the hand, but to the lower arm only.
BUT it'd work as a greave as well. I personally don't like the idea much as I don't really like fighting from horseback, but it'd work for those who like it. Strange thing is that most of these "greaves" DO look like my forearm in proportions - much more than the "true" vambraces. Only a few are too long, and the RA photo of the assembled version is the only one which looks definitely like a greave to me.
I'm almost sure that we'll never find out. Or do we have any illustrations/sculptures/explicit writings? And from where the turkish museum thought it's a vambrace? Good questions, I think.

Aqtai · 15th September 2005, 09:54 AM

I'm going to agree with Ham on this. The evidence for it being a greave is much stronger than the evidence for it being a vambrace. furthermore if you look at the main plate of one of these things sideways on you will note there two distinctive curves or "bumps". The bigger one near the top should fit over the lateral aspect of the calf very nicely, the smaller curve at the bottom would go over the lateral malleolus (ankle bone).

Although they mainly cover the side of the leg, the front is not completely unprotected as the narrow strip connected by mail should partially cover the shin. In addition these greaves would have been worn over sturdy leather boots.

Museums have often got things wrong in the past, the Askeri Muze or Topkapi Museums in Istanbul (I presume the photos came from one of these museums) are no exception.

The one in the RA, although now separated from the cuisse, is still labelled as a "Greave".

Aqtai · 15th September 2005, 05:06 PM

Here is a picture of that 15th century Turkish armour from "Oriental Armour" as it looks now. Unfortunately it's a small photo lacking in detail.
http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/knights/gal_isl2.html

What I think can just about about make out though is that the "vambraces" in Robinson's picture seem to have become "greaves".

My wife's always wanted to go to New York, maybe I'll get a chance to see this again in the near future, once we get someone to babysit 3 kids all aged less than 10!

B.I · 15th September 2005, 07:12 PM

i too agree that to use the term 'unquestionably' is just asking for trouble.
i have no interest in the martial or religious aspect of arms, and so when i study or inspect, i do so from an 'antiques' point of view.
i felt urged to respond to hams statement, but thought it best to wait a short while, to prove my point to myself before bowling in. i visited a friend of mine, who as a good collection of ottoman armour. on the phone, we discussed this point and he completely agreed with me. between us, we have handled many and whilst my taste is always indian, he does own a few sets and a couple of single 'vambraces'.
so, i visited him and he chuckled at ham committing himself so forcefully, all the way up to putting them onto our legs (never done in the antiques world - much frowned upon is the wearing of antiques :-) and they fitted perfectly. this was to both our amazement as we were so confident in our initial judgement. because he owned a few sets, we were able to repeat the experiment and there left no doubt in our minds that we were wrong.
i must say he was more in shock than i. as it is his specialist field :-) but we were both happy to admit out misjudgement, and laugh about it.
its funny, i fight against pre-judgement and following without questioning and it seems we are all guilty of it.
this doesnt proeve that your opinion (aqtai and ham) is correct, but it means my friend and i are now on your side :-)
apologies, and humble, as ever.

Aqtai · 15th September 2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

i too agree that to use the term 'unquestionably' is just asking for trouble.
i have no interest in the martial or religious aspect of arms, and so when i study or inspect, i do so from an 'antiques' point of view.
i felt urged to respond to hams statement, but thought it best to wait a short while, to prove my point to myself before bowling in. i visited a friend of mine, who as a good collection of ottoman armour. on the phone, we discussed this point and he completely agreed with me. between us, we have handled many and whilst my taste is always indian, he does own a few sets and a couple of single 'vambraces'.
so, i visited him and he chuckled at ham committing himself so forcefully, all the way up to putting them onto our legs (never done in the antiques world - much frowned upon is the wearing of antiques :-) and they fitted perfectly. this was to both our amazement as we were so confident in our initial judgement. because he owned a few sets, we were able to repeat the experiment and there left no doubt in our minds that we were wrong.
i must say he was more in shock than i. as it is his specialist field :-) but we were both happy to admit out misjudgement, and laugh about it.
its funny, i fight against pre-judgement and following without questioning and it seems we are all guilty of it.
this doesnt proeve that your opinion (aqtai and ham) is correct, but it means my friend and i are now on your side :-)
apologies, and humble, as ever.

I would call it a bit of experimental archaeology...

It is definitely further evidence to support the "greave" argument. Oh BTW, I'm deeply envious of your friend.

ham · 15th September 2005, 09:45 PM

Gentlemen,

As a scholar, I agree it is dangerous to make such definite statements; my intention in doing so was to stimulate thought and hopefully, to compel someone out there to try a practical application, which happily, it has.
Basing or assuming the correctness of a museum display on its nation of origin, as a member has done above, is likewise dangerous-- beginners especially would be well advised to avoid this at all costs. However rather than criticise museums which shows these calf plates as armguards (and there are a great many,) I would say simply that there are very few specialists who actually apply critical reasoning to the field. Among the best are the Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul, the Royal Armouries, Leeds and the arms and armour section of the Met Museum, New York.

Sincerely,

Ham

Ahriman · 15th September 2005, 10:30 PM

Sorry, I mostly believe the museum which has the same nationality as the item... I understand that it's not a very good thing now but I still can't understand how can a museum be unsure about it's national arms... it'd be almost ok to make an error with foreign armour, but with their own...

I agree, and I mentioned that before, that they make sense as greaves - but I mentioned as well that a short one (like the one I posted before) was quite comfortable for me for fighting. It was, of course, a quite modern one (as I made it

) so most likely it resembles the originals only a bit. IF I had the chance to at least SEE originals personally from more angles and in full size then it's quite likely that I'd be convinced.

But as I don't have the chance, and it worked for me as a vambrace, I can only say that they can be either. Now, if you really want to convince me, send me a few originals so I can try them on! Unfortunatuly I won't be able to send them back...

(((I always like to learn new things... I have never thought of them as greaves before, and now, I'll be the first in Hungary who will use them. Thanks.

)))

15th September 2005, 09:54 AM	#2
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I'm going to agree with Ham on this. The evidence for it being a greave is much stronger than the evidence for it being a vambrace. furthermore if you look at the main plate of one of these things sideways on you will note there two distinctive curves or "bumps". The bigger one near the top should fit over the lateral aspect of the calf very nicely, the smaller curve at the bottom would go over the lateral malleolus (ankle bone). Although they mainly cover the side of the leg, the front is not completely unprotected as the narrow strip connected by mail should partially cover the shin. In addition these greaves would have been worn over sturdy leather boots. Museums have often got things wrong in the past, the Askeri Muze or Topkapi Museums in Istanbul (I presume the photos came from one of these museums) are no exception. The one in the RA, although now separated from the cuisse, is still labelled as a "Greave". Last edited by Aqtai; 15th September 2005 at 04:54 PM.

15th September 2005, 08:18 AM	#1
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	I was told on numerous events that never say "never", or "unquestionably". And BTW, it's listed as vambrace in a TURKISH museum... in Ankara. I have made something like the pic I posted, and it was comfortable for fighting with sabers, and it restricted only a bit movement, less than an italian mitten. Of course, it wouldn't be fixed to the hand, but to the lower arm only. BUT it'd work as a greave as well. I personally don't like the idea much as I don't really like fighting from horseback, but it'd work for those who like it. Strange thing is that most of these "greaves" DO look like my forearm in proportions - much more than the "true" vambraces. Only a few are too long, and the RA photo of the assembled version is the only one which looks definitely like a greave to me. I'm almost sure that we'll never find out. Or do we have any illustrations/sculptures/explicit writings? And from where the turkish museum thought it's a vambrace? Good questions, I think.

15th September 2005, 05:06 PM	#3
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Here is a picture of that 15th century Turkish armour from "Oriental Armour" as it looks now. Unfortunately it's a small photo lacking in detail. http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/knights/gal_isl2.html What I think can just about about make out though is that the "vambraces" in Robinson's picture seem to have become "greaves". My wife's always wanted to go to New York, maybe I'll get a chance to see this again in the near future, once we get someone to babysit 3 kids all aged less than 10!

15th September 2005, 07:12 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	i too agree that to use the term 'unquestionably' is just asking for trouble. i have no interest in the martial or religious aspect of arms, and so when i study or inspect, i do so from an 'antiques' point of view. i felt urged to respond to hams statement, but thought it best to wait a short while, to prove my point to myself before bowling in. i visited a friend of mine, who as a good collection of ottoman armour. on the phone, we discussed this point and he completely agreed with me. between us, we have handled many and whilst my taste is always indian, he does own a few sets and a couple of single 'vambraces'. so, i visited him and he chuckled at ham committing himself so forcefully, all the way up to putting them onto our legs (never done in the antiques world - much frowned upon is the wearing of antiques :-) and they fitted perfectly. this was to both our amazement as we were so confident in our initial judgement. because he owned a few sets, we were able to repeat the experiment and there left no doubt in our minds that we were wrong. i must say he was more in shock than i. as it is his specialist field :-) but we were both happy to admit out misjudgement, and laugh about it. its funny, i fight against pre-judgement and following without questioning and it seems we are all guilty of it. this doesnt proeve that your opinion (aqtai and ham) is correct, but it means my friend and i are now on your side :-) apologies, and humble, as ever.

15th September 2005, 09:45 PM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, As a scholar, I agree it is dangerous to make such definite statements; my intention in doing so was to stimulate thought and hopefully, to compel someone out there to try a practical application, which happily, it has. Basing or assuming the correctness of a museum display on its nation of origin, as a member has done above, is likewise dangerous-- beginners especially would be well advised to avoid this at all costs. However rather than criticise museums which shows these calf plates as armguards (and there are a great many,) I would say simply that there are very few specialists who actually apply critical reasoning to the field. Among the best are the Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul, the Royal Armouries, Leeds and the arms and armour section of the Met Museum, New York. Sincerely, Ham

15th September 2005, 10:30 PM	#7
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Sorry, I mostly believe the museum which has the same nationality as the item... I understand that it's not a very good thing now but I still can't understand how can a museum be unsure about it's national arms... it'd be almost ok to make an error with foreign armour, but with their own... I agree, and I mentioned that before, that they make sense as greaves - but I mentioned as well that a short one (like the one I posted before) was quite comfortable for me for fighting. It was, of course, a quite modern one (as I made it ) so most likely it resembles the originals only a bit. IF I had the chance to at least SEE originals personally from more angles and in full size then it's quite likely that I'd be convinced. But as I don't have the chance, and it worked for me as a vambrace, I can only say that they can be either. Now, if you really want to convince me, send me a few originals so I can try them on! Unfortunatuly I won't be able to send them back... (((I always like to learn new things... I have never thought of them as greaves before, and now, I'll be the first in Hungary who will use them. Thanks. )))