Saif for comment

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Stu for posting the 'Zanzibari' form hilt, which clearly shows the distinct similarities in the channels profiling the grips which in this case seem to be horn. Interesting that the peaked decorated ferrule is very much the same as well.
The deep stamped mark at the ricasso as shown resembles these kinds of bold stamps apparantly occurring in blades which are typically regarded as from regions in Rajasthan. The effect of this stamp is mindful of those attributed to represent the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif, but is not the same.
As has been importantly noted, these MiS stamps are actually regime stamps from Abdur Rahman Khan 1880-1903 in Afghanistan, and not for a particular arsenal as AJ well noted in previous discussions.

I think the most important thing to recognize about this sabre is that it is strongly representative of the Red Sea trade, and the connections between Arabia and India, as well as East Africa. While these style hilts are known to have been popular in the Yemen in Arabia, as well as in Zanzibar with the Omani trade and Sultanate there....they were also produced in Hyderabad in India. There were profound connections between Baluchistan and Oman and I think that the rhino horn seen in examples of Central Asian weapons, including shashka type sabres with similar type marks alongside the government (MiS) stamp of Afghanistan, suggests the trade of these materials. It would seem possible that Omani craftsmen may have adopted these kinds of stamps much as they did with a number of Solingen marks in thier locally produced blades.

The prominant ricasso block is typically indicative of a European blade, but as noted, despite the European features, lacks the quality of typical European blades. In the Anglo-Afghan type sabres of c.1890s we have often discussed, these heavy , deeply channeled blades I have always thought of as European, it would seem these may well have been produced in Rajasthan in European style.

The complexity of this history in these regions is one of the reasons sabres such as this one are powerfully exciting as well as extremely attractive.

Reference http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen

Salaams Jim ~ May I refer readers to the reference above which shows a classic Zanzibari sword etc etc and for some background...(plus posts from you)
It is a good thing that I never got to explore Mazir i Sherif looking for their old armoury ! The explanations by various members clears that one up entirely... Where the wheel comes slightly off the bike is in the distinction between Moroccan and Zanzibari Nimcha (incl. Algerian and North African variants) supposedly transmitted by merchants and pirates along the North African Coast (from Italian styles) though there is substantial evidence to suggest that the weapon is a Spanish derived species(Jinetta). Can it be both? Further what is the relationship between that and the Red Sea variant drawn by Buttin in many forms covering as I recall Saudia or Arabian variants as well as Yemeni and Zanzibari.. The recognition marks seem relevant on the pure Zanzibari already discussed at some length on forum but I am puzzled by the differing provenances ..

Is it in fact plausible that Hyderabad which is known to have had links to the Yemeni sword production could be the source of the Zanzibari Nimcha style and that no transmission is attributable to Morocco at all?

In reference to Solingen marks on Omani blades. I am uncertain what Solingen marks are used upon local Omani blades since I cannot recall seeing one. I have seen Solingen marks on blades imported from the Red Sea zone and rehilted recently in Muscat (originally European) but I wondered which marks you refer to...? ... there was a reference to a western visitor to Hormuz seeing the Andrea Ferrera marks in the early 19th C?... but of others I see none. (though I am checking furiously !!) I add that insofar as the passau wolf is concerned I am not at all sure who inscribed the blades in the case of wolf stamp copies...which they all appear to be... was it the sword maker or the owner?...so I have discounted the wolf mark.

It seems that the stamp on the sword at this thread appears to be a formal stamp rather than a roughly hewn squigle as in the case of the fake wolf marks however I cannot be certain unless more stamps can be found. It is on my list for my next museum visit.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Good afternoon,
Well, the discussion has certainly moved on. However it seems to me that of all the pictures we have seen, inluding Ibrahim's thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen) the blade here most resembles those in this thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14298), i.e Afghan. Obviously there are any number of reasons why an Afghan blade could appear in a Zanzibari type hilt, including, of course, some we would rather not contemplate.
Regards
Richard

[A.alnakkas]

I really dont get how the stamp on the blade resembles the supposed mazar sharif stamp. The stamp is basically an X within 2 squares and with an I across the X. Seems like an easy made up stamp that may resemble anything from Afghan to European stuff.

I would say that this blade is locally made and the stamp is the maker's mark, Simple as that.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent suggestions Ibrahiim! and Lofty and Richard also great observations. The discussion has indeed moved forward perfectly.

As noted, this stamp, which is indeed probably used by either a maker or possibly importer is a formal type rather than crudely applied imitation, and has nothing to do with the Mazir i Sharif stamp. There is every possibility of course that the blade is of existing Afghan types as they typically used a considerable array of weapons from a number of sources.
As I noted also, the connections between the Sind and Baluchistan regions of India are well established, as the eastern sector of trade routes from Oman, then to Yemen and Zanzibar as the western sector.

The 'nimcha' or Moroccan sa'if is firmly developed from Arabian sabres (as I was once told by Dominique Buttin) with these type quillon systems derived apparantly from Italian hilts of 16th century (A. North, 1975). The same influences are notable in the Sinhalese 'kastane' (an even further east Arabian trade contact, Serandib or Ceylon). The arrival of these kinds of hilts in Zanzibar are of course via the Omani trade routes which also brought the well discussed Omani 'kattara' to this sphere. Presumably the same connections are somewhat related to these forms in Morocco (also in degree in Algeria in the Maghreb context).

I am unclear on which European stamps may be spuriously applied in Oman, but since European trade blades were present in some degree by the late 18th-19th century it seems likely that some were, much as the Andrea Ferara noted. It may be presumed that the example seen in 19th century reflected a much older presence given the anachronistic nature of the situations in Oman at the time and even relatively in more recent times.

I think the suggestion of the stylized Omani emblem is quite plausible and well placed as such key emblems were often less intricately reproduced in these kinds of circumstances. I think the 'Passau wolf' is a great example of such variation as well as others such as the dukari moons in North Africa.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent suggestions Ibrahiim! and Lofty and Richard also great observations. The discussion has indeed moved forward perfectly.

As noted, this stamp, which is indeed probably used by either a maker or possibly importer is a formal type rather than crudely applied imitation, and has nothing to do with the Mazir i Sharif stamp. There is every possibility of course that the blade is of existing Afghan types as they typically used a considerable array of weapons from a number of sources.
As I noted also, the connections between the Sind and Baluchistan regions of India are well established, as the eastern sector of trade routes from Oman, then to Yemen and Zanzibar as the western sector.

The 'nimcha' or Moroccan sa'if is firmly developed from Arabian sabres (as I was once told by Dominique Buttin) with these type quillon systems derived apparantly from Italian hilts of 16th century (A. North, 1975). The same influences are notable in the Sinhalese 'kastane' (an even further east Arabian trade contact, Serandib or Ceylon). The arrival of these kinds of hilts in Zanzibar are of course via the Omani trade routes which also brought the well discussed Omani 'kattara' to this sphere. Presumably the same connections are somewhat related to these forms in Morocco (also in degree in Algeria in the Maghreb context).

I am unclear on which European stamps may be spuriously applied in Oman, but since European trade blades were present in some degree by the late 18th-19th century it seems likely that some were, much as the Andrea Ferara noted. It may be presumed that the example seen in 19th century reflected a much older presence given the anachronistic nature of the situations in Oman at the time and even relatively in more recent times.

I think the suggestion of the stylized Omani emblem is quite plausible and well placed as such key emblems were often less intricately reproduced in these kinds of circumstances. I think the 'Passau wolf' is a great example of such variation as well as others such as the dukari moons in North Africa.

Salaams Jim ~ Thankyou for the excellent reply~ I looked at the stamp many times trying to figure it out but its just not clear enough... at one point I thought it could have been two budgies feet facing each other or the possibility of some sort of Omani Naval or military stamp is still floating..Although the blade looks European it could be Indian or Yemeni so there could be some relevance in greater Hyderabad and or Hadramauti influence here...

It is interesting that you actually met Buttin and that must have been a great exchange of ideas. I only have a few extracts mainly sketches of his main page refering to Nimchas and I wondered if he stated where they came from... Morocco or Italy? It is certainly an ideal weapon particularly for ship work and men with a smaller build.

As an entirely different note I also wonder if Schiavona similarly drifted into the Red Sea region as this could be the lead which has brought several "Omani looking" but non flexible blades into that arena, their provenance made harder since they are rehilted on various different hilts.

I sent my camera crew to Muscat a few days ago with the mission to retrieve pictures from certain museums and hopefully we shall get some results soon...like what were the "military swords" of Oman like in the 19th C?

Meanwhile this blade is a puzzle both in the stamp and its make up... and one area we have rather not been able to put under the scope is Sri Lanka with its peculiar but very own specific Nimcha (Kastane) and the Arab link.
I think this is a great debate and very much opens up the entire Nimcha story.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ibrahim,
It was indeed a great exchange of ideas, and especially talking about his esteemed grandfather who had apparantly lived in Morocco a good number of years. The 'nimchas' in Buttins catalog (1933) were all from either North Africa or Arab provenance asI recall. Actually the late Anthony North recalled the details of the suggestions of North Italian beginnings of these Arab swords in a 1975 article, noting that Buttin had pointed out the resemblances of the kastane and nimchas to the stortas of Italy of the late 15th century.

It seems that nimchas in North Africa often had full size blades rather than the shorter, cutlass type blades associated with onboard close quarters fighting. It seems these 'corsairs' often were involved more in raiding on shore than at sea.
I think that blades from Italy did enter the Red Sea trade, but these were not necessarily schiavona (which refers more to the hilt configuration) but full size arming sword blades. The presence of Italian trade had of course been in many regions of North Africa from early times, and the influence of Italian arms well placed among a number of weapon forms there.

All best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ibrahim,
It was indeed a great exchange of ideas, and especially talking about his esteemed grandfather who had apparantly lived in Morocco a good number of years. The 'nimchas' in Buttins catalog (1933) were all from either North Africa or Arab provenance asI recall. Actually the late Anthony North recalled the details of the suggestions of North Italian beginnings of these Arab swords in a 1975 article, noting that Buttin had pointed out the resemblances of the kastane and nimchas to the stortas of Italy of the late 15th century.

It seems that nimchas in North Africa often had full size blades rather than the shorter, cutlass type blades associated with onboard close quarters fighting. It seems these 'corsairs' often were involved more in raiding on shore than at sea.
I think that blades from Italy did enter the Red Sea trade, but these were not necessarily schiavona (which refers more to the hilt configuration) but full size arming sword blades. The presence of Italian trade had of course been in many regions of North Africa from early times, and the influence of Italian arms well placed among a number of weapon forms there.

All best regards,
Jim

References;
A http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha see # 26 by Kurt.

Salaams Jim ~ I thought a picture of Buttins page above on the subject would be useful. It appears that these were Arab styles.
On the subject of Schiavona, actually, I refer to blade form rather than hilt form and in particular double edged blades. It makes sense that blades leaked into the red sea region from this Italian style and would have been re hilted. It goes as rather a note in the marjin since I have no extended proof though I suspect the non flexible blades occasionally seen on some Omani rehilts and in some museums/souks in Yemen and Saudia may be related to these though for me, as yet, it remains penciled in for a further look later.

I find it very interesting about the stortas linkage..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.