New Gunong

David · 10th August 2012, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I have personally my problems to believe that a gunong with ivory pommel is from the time after WW2.

Why is that Detlef. There are many elaborate gunongs that date post WW2. You can still find ivory being used to this day in keris hilts. Why not gunongs?

Sajen · 10th August 2012, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Why is that Detlef. There are many elaborate gunongs that date post WW2. You can still find ivory being used to this day in keris hilts. Why not gunongs?

I think that a keris is a complete different culture thing. Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals (maybe I am wrong by this??

). Elaborate workmanship wasn't expensive to this time but ivory was I think. The gunong in question seems IMHO a representation piece for a local. Or I am so wrong??

David · 11th August 2012, 03:08 AM

Here's an ivory gunong that i'm pretty sure is also post WW2....
...and while the one on the thread linked below only has layers of ivory as well as MOP, i'm pretty sure it is also post WW2...and you bid on it when it was in auction Detlef...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13095

Battara · 11th August 2012, 03:36 AM

Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.

Sajen · 11th August 2012, 04:07 PM

Hi David,

yes I bid because I like it!

Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong??

David · 11th August 2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi David,

yes I bid because I like it!

Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong??

Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade.
"Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..."
Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2. Of course there is also a high-end "tourist" market, or rather a "collectors" market that i think some makers in the Philippines may still cater to. I cannot find the link (perhaps someone can assist) that was posted a while back of a current Philippines workshop that seemed to be putting out some very nicely made gunongs along with other Moro weapons. If the market is there and there are customers willing to pay for quality materials, the means and know-how do still exist to create it.

Battara · 11th August 2012, 07:13 PM

You also must understand that there are also datus during WWII and perhaps some of these were made for them.

Sajen · 11th August 2012, 10:54 PM

[QUOTE=David]Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade.
"Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..."
Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2.QUOTE]

It was my assumption that after WW2 were made for tourists. When it isn't like this we have agreement in all parts.
I simple have had problems to believe that Roberts gunong was made for tourists.

David · 12th August 2012, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.

I think we both agree on the relative age on this blade, but if you look at the Krieger Plate at #9 you can see similar blade work at least dates to 1926 when this plate was made.

VANDOO · 14th August 2012, 06:11 PM

EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST

I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE.
I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED.
AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR.

I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA.

David · 14th August 2012, 06:37 PM

Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? So hard to tell in photos. Certainly a solid piece with some age on it. Again, i'm wondering when certain changes took place such as the more bulbous and pistol shaped hilt.

David · 14th August 2012, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST

I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE.
I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED.
AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR.

I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA.

Barry, i'm not at home with my books, but did you check under the name "punal" or "kris punal"?

11th August 2012, 03:08 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Here's an ivory gunong that i'm pretty sure is also post WW2.... ...and while the one on the thread linked below only has layers of ivory as well as MOP, i'm pretty sure it is also post WW2...and you bid on it when it was in auction Detlef... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13095 Attached Images

11th August 2012, 03:36 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.

11th August 2012, 04:07 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,416	Hi David, yes I bid because I like it! Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong??

11th August 2012, 07:13 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	You also must understand that there are also datus during WWII and perhaps some of these were made for them.

11th August 2012, 10:54 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,416	[QUOTE=David]Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade. "Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..." Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2.QUOTE] It was my assumption that after WW2 were made for tourists. When it isn't like this we have agreement in all parts. I simple have had problems to believe that Roberts gunong was made for tourists.

14th August 2012, 06:11 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE. I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED. AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR. I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA.

14th August 2012, 06:37 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? So hard to tell in photos. Certainly a solid piece with some age on it. Again, i'm wondering when certain changes took place such as the more bulbous and pistol shaped hilt.