Two Arab ex-Enfield Pattern 1853 guns

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Mefidk

Not sure if it helps your discussion of the patterns and their significance, but here are a couple of pictures of the patterns you could not see before. One which is duplicated on all barrel bands on both guns, the other is forward of the trigger guard. The third picture is the non-studded gun same location - the best angle I have. If we need more pictures we will have to ask the new owner.

Chris

Salaams Mefidk ~ I have to say Im about out of ammo at this point ! Interesting thread thanks..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Mefidk]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Mefidk ~ I have to say Im about out of ammo at this point ! Interesting thread thanks..

Salaams Ibrahiim - well it was worth a shot
Chris

[rickystl]

Hello all. Entering this Thread a little late. Full disclosure: I am the new owner of the less decorated gun. And I feel fortunate to have been able to purchase it. These Saudi - Bedouin decorated guns are often hard to come by. Especially when the gun started out as a complete M1853 Enfield. As mentioned above, I am hard pressed to think of a percussion musket more widely used throughout the world as the British Enfield.
The gun is on it's way to my house as I write this. Can't wait to see it.
Mefidk: Feel free to Post any and all photos desired on the Forum.
Apparently, both of these guns have smooth bores vs the .577 rifled barrel. I believe the British did make some M1853 style barrels in smooth bore sent to the Indian continent? But I will try to verify this - maybe on the European Forum? I also seem to recall reading that many barrels in the Eastern continent were re-bored to smooth. The barrels on both of these guns due look genuine British with the exception of the replaced rear sight to suite local tastes. Even the ramrods look correct.
Mefidk: Thanks again for your willingness to part with one. I will try to reciprocate at some future point. Rick.

[adrian]

Hi Rick yes the British made the Pattern 1858 & then the Pattern 1859 as smoothbore Enfield "Rifles" for service in India. They decided, after the Mutiny, to always keep the arms of their Indian troops one generation behind those arms of the regular army.
Adrian

[Mefidk]

Hi Adrian
That is very interesting, thanks for coming in on this. I've heard this mentioned before. I guess that there may be more to the story in this case though, since this lock on one gun at least dates to before the Indian mutiny (1855 contra 1857). Of course the lock may have been replaced by an earlier one, or maybe there were smooth bore P53s in circulation too. I guess a third possibility could be that rifled early Enfields could have been bored smooth for reissue (if that is technically possible ).
Between the two guns we have quite a selection of military stamps on he barrels. I wonder if you know if there is any way to use these stamps to separate colonial issue guns from the regular army, or provide hints to their history?
Chris

[adrian]

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by adrian

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

Once I receive mine, I'll clean up the lock and barrel and take photos of any markings on the lock and barrel. As you mentioned, there is probably stamps on the bottom of the barrels. But I suspect barrel removal may prove difficult, if not impossible without damaging the stock. That is, if the silver decoration surrounding the barrel is attached with small nails. I'll have to wait till it arrives and decide then. Thanks for your input. Most helpful. Rick.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by adrian

Hi Rick yes the British made the Pattern 1858 & then the Pattern 1859 as smoothbore Enfield "Rifles" for service in India. They decided, after the Mutiny, to always keep the arms of their Indian troops one generation behind those arms of the regular army.
Adrian

Hi Adrian. I thought I read something about this. Thanks!!