Very small matchlock, any ideas?

estcrh · 1st August 2012, 05:06 AM

Well I have given up trying to find anything like this, I cant believe it is the only one in the world, there must be others in collections etc. Since it is so rare I got some additional images and the exact measurements, it is supposedly 17th century but I am not sure how this is determined, length 25cm/9.8in, caliber 14 mm/0.55 in.

fernando · 1st August 2012, 07:52 PM

Sorry for the impertinence, estcrh

Have you thoroughly checked both backsight and priming pan fixation... and the breech plug area ?
Are you sure the barrel was not cut down ?
Sure this is a 'customized' gun. The point is : is it a modified toradar or was it born like that ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st August 2012, 08:26 PM

SALAAMS ALL~ Nice looking weapon. A lot of long barrels blew at the first weld caused by the use of too much gunpowder.(two shown below of the arab long barrel abu futtila type) I suspect that a number of these blown barrels were used as essentially "sawn off weapons" much in the same way that snapped swords were re used in Indian bladed weapons. I think the rear sight gives the game away and the butt which is a Torrador cut back. To me this seems to be a recycled cannon end with a re cut/ modified butt and a new foresight button. You would think that more of this design would be seen...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

estcrh · 4th August 2012, 03:02 AM

Fernando, thanks for the thoughts, I have not seen the gun in person but hopefully I will have a chance, your mention of the breech plug is interesting. I have seen several Japanese matchlock breech plugs but I could not find any torador breech plug images online, do you know of any? If and when I do get a chance to see this gun I might be able to take it apart and photograph it and try to determine if it was originally created as a pistol.

Ibrahiim, you may be right about the barrel being modified from a larger one but the fact that there is a rear sight does not necessarily mean it is a cut down barrel. Since there are no other images so far of another torador pistol to compare this one to all I can say is that all Japanese matchlock pistols I have seen including the very small ones have a rear sight and these were made as pistols for sure. I think the images I posted are misleading, from the size given I do not think the stock could be cut/ modified from a larger torador, this would be a really tiny pistol, the type you could hide in a boot etc. If I get an opportunity I will try to take a picture of this pistol next to a full size torador for comparison.

David R · 7th August 2012, 01:05 AM

The breechplugs of Indian matchlocks are heat shrunk in. The plug is made to fit, the breech heated till it expands and the plug inserted, when the barrel cools the plug is fixed. No screw thread.
Toradors seem to have been made in all sizes, so I find nothing odd in a pistol sized one, and they seem to have always been in this profile as well. So I would say, unusual but not unique.
G.C.Stone illustrates a couple of Turkish and Persian "pistols" with this stock configuration, but with Miquelet locks rather than match.
I remember a reference from somewhere that these were fired from (butted against) the thigh on horseback, rather than with an extended arm like a western pistol.
Really only handling would tell whether it was born as a pistol or retrofitted from a damaged barrel....and the latter would still be in keeping with it being a genuine piece.

rickystl · 7th August 2012, 08:02 PM

Hi Estcrh. I have looked everywhere to find photos of a Toridor barrel with the breech plug removed. No luck. Here's a photo of my Japanese Matchlock barrel with the breechplug removed. This is an original I shoot. But, I've never seen a Toridor barrel even removed from a gun to inspect the breech area. However, stay tuned, as I plan on removing the barrel from my Toridor to see the breech assembly. Like you, I have always been curious to see what the breech plug and the interior of the barrel look like at the breech end. I probably won't be able to do this till the end of the year. But I will take photos as I go along and Post on the Forum.
The Toridor "pistol" above still looks like it was made that way. It just does not look like a cut-down to me.

David: I have always felt the same as your comment about the breech plug installation, but never knew for sure. But, I believe you are correct. Since I plan on making mine a shooting gun, the sweated breech plug can be replaced with a threaded one I can have made. I need to make sure that the breech end of the barrel is straight with the rest of the bore and does not have what's called a "powder chamber" at the breech, similar to early medieval hand gonnes. Should be interesting. Rick.

rickystl · 7th August 2012, 08:06 PM

Oppps. Forgot the photos

estcrh · 9th August 2012, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

The breechplugs of Indian matchlocks are heat shrunk in. The plug is made to fit, the breech heated till it expands and the plug inserted, when the barrel cools the plug is fixed. No screw thread.

David, thank for the info, I was not aware that they were not threaded like the Japanese matchlocks are. Supposedly the only part of the matchlocks acquired from the Portuguese that the Japanese had a problem replicating was the breech plugs, they had to wait a year for the Portuguese to return to Japan with a blacksmith who instructed the Japanese on the proper method of threading the barrel and bolt.

Rickystl, definitely post some pictures of your torador if you get a chance to take it apart. I have a couple of pictures of the torador pistol next to a full sized one, its seems that it was made as a pistol from what I can see.

fernando · 9th August 2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

... Supposedly the only part of the matchlocks acquired from the Portuguese that the Japanese had a problem replicating was the breech plugs, they had to wait a year for the Portuguese to return to Japan with a blacksmith who instructed the Japanese on the proper method of threading the barrel and bolt...

What a fascinating piece of information; can you tell where you got it from ?

1st August 2012, 05:06 AM	#1
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Well I have given up trying to find anything like this, I cant believe it is the only one in the world, there must be others in collections etc. Since it is so rare I got some additional images and the exact measurements, it is supposedly 17th century but I am not sure how this is determined, length 25cm/9.8in, caliber 14 mm/0.55 in. Attached Images

1st August 2012, 08:26 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	SALAAMS ALL~ Nice looking weapon. A lot of long barrels blew at the first weld caused by the use of too much gunpowder.(two shown below of the arab long barrel abu futtila type) I suspect that a number of these blown barrels were used as essentially "sawn off weapons" much in the same way that snapped swords were re used in Indian bladed weapons. I think the rear sight gives the game away and the butt which is a Torrador cut back. To me this seems to be a recycled cannon end with a re cut/ modified butt and a new foresight button. You would think that more of this design would be seen... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

7th August 2012, 08:06 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Oppps. Forgot the photos Attached Images

1st August 2012, 07:52 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry for the impertinence, estcrh Have you thoroughly checked both backsight and priming pan fixation... and the breech plug area ? Are you sure the barrel was not cut down ? Sure this is a 'customized' gun. The point is : is it a modified toradar or was it born like that ?

4th August 2012, 03:02 AM	#4
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Fernando, thanks for the thoughts, I have not seen the gun in person but hopefully I will have a chance, your mention of the breech plug is interesting. I have seen several Japanese matchlock breech plugs but I could not find any torador breech plug images online, do you know of any? If and when I do get a chance to see this gun I might be able to take it apart and photograph it and try to determine if it was originally created as a pistol. Ibrahiim, you may be right about the barrel being modified from a larger one but the fact that there is a rear sight does not necessarily mean it is a cut down barrel. Since there are no other images so far of another torador pistol to compare this one to all I can say is that all Japanese matchlock pistols I have seen including the very small ones have a rear sight and these were made as pistols for sure. I think the images I posted are misleading, from the size given I do not think the stock could be cut/ modified from a larger torador, this would be a really tiny pistol, the type you could hide in a boot etc. If I get an opportunity I will try to take a picture of this pistol next to a full size torador for comparison.

7th August 2012, 01:05 AM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,131	The breechplugs of Indian matchlocks are heat shrunk in. The plug is made to fit, the breech heated till it expands and the plug inserted, when the barrel cools the plug is fixed. No screw thread. Toradors seem to have been made in all sizes, so I find nothing odd in a pistol sized one, and they seem to have always been in this profile as well. So I would say, unusual but not unique. G.C.Stone illustrates a couple of Turkish and Persian "pistols" with this stock configuration, but with Miquelet locks rather than match. I remember a reference from somewhere that these were fired from (butted against) the thigh on horseback, rather than with an extended arm like a western pistol. Really only handling would tell whether it was born as a pistol or retrofitted from a damaged barrel....and the latter would still be in keeping with it being a genuine piece.

7th August 2012, 08:02 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Estcrh. I have looked everywhere to find photos of a Toridor barrel with the breech plug removed. No luck. Here's a photo of my Japanese Matchlock barrel with the breechplug removed. This is an original I shoot. But, I've never seen a Toridor barrel even removed from a gun to inspect the breech area. However, stay tuned, as I plan on removing the barrel from my Toridor to see the breech assembly. Like you, I have always been curious to see what the breech plug and the interior of the barrel look like at the breech end. I probably won't be able to do this till the end of the year. But I will take photos as I go along and Post on the Forum. The Toridor "pistol" above still looks like it was made that way. It just does not look like a cut-down to me. David: I have always felt the same as your comment about the breech plug installation, but never knew for sure. But, I believe you are correct. Since I plan on making mine a shooting gun, the sweated breech plug can be replaced with a threaded one I can have made. I need to make sure that the breech end of the barrel is straight with the rest of the bore and does not have what's called a "powder chamber" at the breech, similar to early medieval hand gonnes. Should be interesting. Rick.